[Hamish Young]

Probably important we retain some perspective here;  there is really very little ground in the UK that has not been (or currently is) a managed / artifical / altered environment.
How our forebears created the country 'sporting environment' we live in is largely immaterial, but the traditions (particularly the sporting traditions) that were established then and continue now are divisive in many ways and are often seen as demonstrable evidence of a dated class system.
I digress - when it comes to 'Grouse' moors we are talking about a managed environment that has been carefully maintained in many ways to help the Grouse thrive. When we look at 'Salmon' rivers considerable infrastructure was put in place to improve pools, create pools, develop means to improve catches.
So the Grouse and Salmon have a common theme, people have tried to increase the populations and improve the potential of a shot or a catch. Where else have we done that.... Farming Yup. Reality is anywhere where homo sapiens want something they'll create it somehow then manage it.

So what was there before all this land husbandry Well that's probably the bigger question.
I don't subscribe to the somewhat utopian or naive view that nature will return things to the way they were. Nature can't, because we've f*cked with it too much, but it can adapt and create a new ecosystem. We can guess and we can let nature 'do its thing' but that doesn't mean what fills the void is indicative of what once was, all it means is that when you stop doing one thing another will take over - it may not be what you want or need, but it's what you're going to get becuase it's all that's going to happen.

You only have to look at our current PM to see the truth in that.

Is there a way forward I think you have to define what's desirable and the outcome folk want. I don't shoot these days and I've never been on a 'proper' grouse shoot, but I know plenty of folk who have and who make their living from supporting the sport.
We're not going to be in the position that the R.S.P.B and the sporting/landowning 'stakeholders' are ever going to sing from the same hymn sheet - their positions are too entrenched and so diametrically opposed that simply cannot happen.

Where do I sit on this I expect Chris Packham has a poster on his office wall of beavers, bears, wolves and Dodos - possibly some dinosaurs too.

H

[Derek Roxborough]

100% correct Bob but I don’t think you’ll ever change the mind of Derek or the likes of Packham and co, they have a totally different agenda. If they ever get their way the current moorland environment and wildlife it supports will be lost and by the time they realise their mistake it will be too late, it will be gone for ever.

Don't equate me with Packham, how do you describe the current moorland environment?it's managed purely for the shooters ,with clear burn to open the ground for the beaters, some one said that the visitors come to see managed moorland  Eh?I worked for SNH for a while and the people I spoke to wanted wild unspoiled areas,I have no issue with hunting, only the way it's done. you're telling me that Current moorland management is beneficial to  ground nesting Raptors? one guy a couple of weeks back said they had hobbies on their land that must be a first for the area, nesting as they do in scattered woodland, I much prefer to see walk up shooting , rather that the mass slaughter of the driven shoot, I don't have a lot of time for the RSPB, we are each entitled to our own views, as it should be , have you  an opinion of the Golden eagle with a trap on its leg pictured in the papers yesterday and on the stv news the other night?
because if that's the way moors are managed then I'm against it
Derek Roxborough

[James Laraway]

if you  have a think about it managed grouse moorland is no different from the southern English chalkstreams.

they were originally marshes, but over time and with much effort they were sculpted into 'artificial' rivers by diverting flows, building artificial banks etc.

Would we get rid of them now ? Er no.

As with everything there is a balance to be struck,

Grouse moors tend to be in areas where the is little opportunity to either do anything else with the land and there is also little employment. If we want to stop depopulation of areas there needs to be employment - and game-keepering and grouse shooting does just that. Sure, its not a huge number of jobs and they are not the best paid but they are jobs. Plus the money generated helps keep the estates financially afloat ( when I say afloat im sure almost all estates are loss making so it helps offset some of the losses).

I believe ( correct me if I am wrong) that grouse are not bred in captivity and released for shooting  - unlike pheasants for example.

So I would have thought that the 'natural' target for the 'antis' would be pheasant shoots where they do shoot hundreds of birds a day ( the birds being 'stocked' , 'stupid' and probably easy to shoot).

But no, they focus on grouse shooting . Why ? Probably because it is seem as the preserve of 'the rich' ( which it probably is to a large extent)

Walked up grouse is more within the reach of the 'working man' .

As for the golden eagle, IF its legs are caught in a trap then that is horrible - but of course you cant see that in the picture. The eagle may have picked up an animal which was already stuck in the trap.

On my way to some hill lochs  I have come across these 'gin-like' traps. They are usually within artificial tunnels to stop the raptors ( or sheep)  getting trapped. The traps I have seen are on farmland and NOT on grouse moors. Frankly im amazed they are still allowed as they do strike me as very cruel and there has to be a better way of controlling 'pests'

A lot of what is in the news now from the likes of Packham and the RSPB is purely to try and envoke public outrage. Any positive effects of managed moorland are conveniently forgotten. Not the way it should be, but its just the way of things these days sadly...

[Derek Roxborough]

James the grouse moor owners say £155million goes into the economy, so why do they need £4million of a grant? . why the manicured moors? this isn't for the benefit of the grouse but for the convenience of the beaters, grouse have existed on un managed moors since Noah was a lad and they are still here, they co-existed with the Mountain hare, perhaps in those days they were immune to Tick born fever, who knows?, I know man has altered the land until very little , if any,truly wild  land exists, I know jobs are at a premium in rural areas, but how many are there on grouse moors, really? a couple of keepers and some summer time students?I didn't come down with the last shower of rain, the Eagle with the trap actually has the trap on it's leg ,I,m sorry if my attitude offends you , but I am entitled to my opinions , as are you ,but we must agree to disagree, life is too short, Derek Roxborough

[Duncan Inglis]

Last comment from me on this
1. The £4m is in effect a farming subsidy paid for the herds of sheep run by the estates on their moor, read the article I posted.
2. Heather is burned to provide a variety of habitat that the grouse and other birds, animals etc that are on the moors, NOT for the benefit of beaters.
3. Walked up shooting, which as an aside I love, wouldn’t bring in enough income to support and help finance the estates.
4. Driven shooting of grouse is also used as a management tool. Numerous counts are carried out by the keepers not only to assess if there is a viable surplus but also to access the ratio of old to young grouse. Too many older birds is not good for  the overall health of the grouse stock.
5.  Proof of this management is the cancelling of any grouse shooting on a number of estates over the last couple of years. Nobody compensates the estates for the substantial loss of income.
6. The poor grouse numbers in recent years has predominantly been caused by poor weather in the spring, the beast from the east etc. The weather hit at the time the young grouse were too big to get shelter from the hen and too small to survive a week plus of cold wet weather.
7.  With both walkup and driven shoots on properly managed moors, samples of the shot birds are checked to assess the strongyle worm numbers carried by the birds. High worm counts ultimately lead to the death of the carriers, these carriers tend to be older birds. Unfortunately with high worm counts the worm is passed to the younger birds if not controlled.
8. With properly managed shooting with experienced guns who are properly briefed its possible to pick out the older grouse, thus helping the overall health of the grouse stock on the moor.

[James Laraway]

James the grouse moor owners say £155million goes into the economy, so why do they need £4million of a grant? . why the manicured moors? this isn't for the benefit of the grouse but for the convenience of the beaters, grouse have existed on un managed moors since Noah was a lad and they are still here, they co-existed with the Mountain hare, perhaps in those days they were immune to Tick born fever, who knows?, I know man has altered the land until very little , if any,truly wild  land exists, I know jobs are at a premium in rural areas, but how many are there on grouse moors, really? a couple of keepers and some summer time students?I didn't come down with the last shower of rain, the Eagle with the trap actually has the trap on it's leg ,I,m sorry if my attitude offends you , but I am entitled to my opinions , as are you ,but we must agree to disagree, life is too short, Derek Roxborough

you attitude most certainly does not offend me in any way Derek. We all have our views.
You clearly grew up in the countryside so have some very valuable perspectives and views.
Managed moors I don't have an issue with. Should they get subsidies ? Sadly almost everything is subsidised these days - even through the people who get the subsidies are super rich and don't need the money.
As for the eagle photo, if  it idoes have a trap on its leg that is very sad and I hope it can be caught and saved. Im just very dubious of anything that is posted on the internet these days - are there are so many people willing to fake things to stir up trouble..

[Derek Roxborough]

north Yorks Moors do have muir burn but not to the same extent as the central Highlands, read my post about moorland manicures, Grouse and other moorland creatures have been quite happy to live and thrive on these moors for Millenia, before man could use more than a hawk to get a grouse, even when early firearms were around , flintlocks had a flash before the actual explosion this gave  a warning of sorts to the birds and other animals,so grouse lived happily with out mans interference,don't try and blow smoke and make me think that grouse couldn't survive with out mans intervention, at my age I'm not so gullible, we lost harriers and merlins here because of the increase in sheepstock and the Idea that burning off would benefit the sheep, burning so much that about 12 years ago it went into the peat and burned for 7 or 8weeks
this was done by crofters, our club lost a boat ,due to this burning, not for grouse but for sheep, if , as you said the £4mill. was a farming subsidy then it was not  made clear on the news only that it was a payment to the estates, after living working and observing for over 50years in the highlands, I don't just accept all I see or hear,an example was when I worked in a hatchery, and we were told of the thousands of jobs in the salmon farming industry, as the job I had took me to most of the fish farms through out the north, where , if there was 20 people employed , after multilplying this by the no. of sites came to less than 2,500, and there were sites with a lot less than 20, some times only 5 or 6, I use this as an example of misinformation around, and I know it works both ways, I have been away from fishing because of an injury , but I am hoping to get back to it very very soon, like this weekend given the weather,
Derek Roxborough 

[Bob Mitchell]

Without muirburn there would be nothing but dead heather. If you ever see the damage that the heather beetle does  and how the land is after it you would be wanting the heather strip burned as at present. Sheep would have no grass as the heather just chocks everything else.
The traps mentioned earlier in tunnels are not gin traps which have been illegal since 1956. They probly were Fenn traps which kill instantly if properly set.
I know that the chances of both sides [R.S.P.B. and moorland owners] getting together is highly unlikely but one can live in hope.
Bob.

[Derek Roxborough]

you attitude most certainly does not offend me in any way Derek. We all have our views.
You clearly grew up in the countryside so have some very valuable perspectives and views.
Managed moors I don't have an issue with. Should they get subsidies ? Sadly almost everything is subsidised these days - even through the people who get the subsidies are super rich and don't need the money.
As for the eagle photo, if  it idoes have a trap on its leg that is very sad and I hope it can be caught and saved. Im just very dubious of anything that is posted on the internet these days - are there are so many people willing to fake things to stir up trouble..

the eagle photo was in the papers and on the STV news the other night
Derek Roxborough

[Derek Roxborough]

Without muirburn there would be nothing but dead heather. If you ever see the damage that the heather beetle does  and how the land is after it you would be wanting the heather strip burned as at present. Sheep would have no grass as the heather just chocks everything else.
The traps mentioned earlier in tunnels are not gin traps which have been illegal since 1956. They probly were Fenn traps which kill instantly if properly set.
I know that the chances of both sides [R.S.P.B. and moorland owners] getting together is highly unlikely but one can live in hope.
Bob.

the heather on the loch Maree Islands is thriving without being Burnt , OK it's about 5ft high in places with stems about  1 inch or more thick, and on the new afforestation it's  about the same and the grouse seem to like it, it would seem it's only humans that don't like it , it's a bugger to walk in but not much  worse than walking through burnt heather which knocks hell out of yer boots, Derek Roxborough

[Bob Mitchell]

Have been shooting/working on moors for to many years.
Is there any harriers on your island.
Good luck.
Bob.

[Derek Roxborough]

not particularly a shooter, I have no issues with people who shoot for the pot, I have done this in the past, I have walked on much moorland through out the UK , and for the  last 50+ years in the highlands, I have eyes and can see what is going on, any one that tells me that the moors are managed to benefit the Grouse are Havering,           D W Roxborough

[Derek Roxborough]

no but we have Sea eagles and Black throated Divers and occasional Rough legged buzzards, the harriers that nested near us nested in mature heather ,it's what gave them suitable cover, but regular burning and increased sheepstock , made it difficult for them,and the merlins, Derek Roxborough