Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Jim Doyle

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #25 on: 23/01/2008 at 22:26 »
Dosnt matter about modulas cloth or resin type.  A flaw in a thin walled rod is magnified as the tolerancies  are so fine.  It is a bit simplistic and you are right about newer materials but it was how it was explained to me in the B+W factory .  jim

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #26 on: 24/01/2008 at 06:06 »
Dosnt matter about modulas cloth or resin type.

Really?

Sandy  :-*

Jim Doyle

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #27 on: 24/01/2008 at 11:41 »
I think we are talking at cross purposes here.  Yes the stiffness of a rod is effected by the materials, however the principle remains the same, the thinner the wall of the blank the greater the effect of any flaw . :cool: jim

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #28 on: 24/01/2008 at 12:46 »
This is fun :grin

So if the modulus of the materials does now affect the stiffness of the blank (about 95% effect with carbon fibre) And perhaps if we regard the fact that when carbon rods are the subject then Taper has almost no effect at all, (unlike bamboo) then we can talk about wall thickness.

Thin walled blanks are more prone to deformation than a thick walled blank, they are tubes after all, however if the thin walled tube is of a larger diameter than the thick walled tube then the stiffness assuming the same modulus of material, will be about the same. Elasticity of the material during the deformation affects how well it regains its shape, this is affected by the cloth, resin and scrim type used. This is where all the rod building science goes these days.
Flaws in any material subject to stress will cause problems, what you tend to find with flaws in composite is the micro cracks will propagate from flaw to flaw, the more or larger the flaws the faster the cracks will propagate, eventually they will become critical and the material will break. I can see how an assumption that a thin wall will break more easily, if it is created under the same conditions and from the same material as the the thicker wall , would work. There is less material therefore less micro cracks are required to reach the critical point.
Problems is, if the designer is building a thin walled blank then they will select appropriate materials that allow the tube to deform more readily and with greater elasticity and therefore not crack so quickly, likewise if they design a thicker walled blank they will select materials appropriate to the purpose.

So materials are the prime mover in the design of a blank and they will dictate how thick a wall is to be made and what the properties of the finished rod will be. Incorrect manufacturing of said materials is what will cause the problems. Building any carbon fibre product that is to be subjected to a variety of stresses is a very intensive and clinical procedure, the very fine tolerances required as the grades increase need very specialised equipment and i still reckon thats the problem, the machines being used are not up the requirements of the materials. Modern resins need to be hotter and under greater pressure than ever before.

Interestingly Modulus was a big issue even with bamboo/cane rods. Flaming rods increases the modulus of the material (by expelling moisture), therefore making the rod stiffer and quicker (taper staying the same) but go too far and the rod becomes brittle. Nodes are the issue with Boo, natural flaws, staggering them was the best solution to making the rod stronger, handy when you can see the flaws :grin

Sandy


Jim Doyle

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #29 on: 24/01/2008 at 13:03 »
The reason that B+W started to develope the hexagon rod was to try and cut down on flaws being a problem.  It was Richard Walker who put forward the theory that a hexagonal rod would potentially eliminate the distortion problem of a Tube.  However the building of such a rod was fraught with dificulties , so much so that they were constructed on the flat and then cut to shape and glued together in the same manner as a cane rod.  Interestingly messers Bruce and Walker said it was easier to detect flaws by this method, i suppose they had cross sections of the blank they could check. I have examples of very early carbon blanks from several companies and the wall thickness ? taper is quite amusing.  jim :wink

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #30 on: 24/01/2008 at 13:19 »
I have examples of very early carbon blanks from several companies and the wall thickness ? taper is quite amusing. 

I would well believe that, early glass and later carbon rods were built by people who understood Cane.
So they thought taper was the method to create action, it wasn't until better grade cloths and resins started to appear about 15-20 years ago that the idea that it was the materials that could be used to affect the action of the rod started to sink in.

Interesting you mention the hexagraph have you read this http://www.norman-agutters.com/archives5.htm

The idea was to avoid the deformation problems, history is quite absorbing :z16

Sandy

Jim Doyle

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #31 on: 24/01/2008 at 16:51 »
I think that is a slightly rose coloured view of events!!  the origonal idea was the great Richard Walkers, He thought that a hexagonal tube would be the answer, this came about as with his first designs, through his contact with the aero space development lab at Farnbourgh.  He took this idea to Bruce and Walker who tried making a mandrils.    There was a problem with this and the decision was made to make the blanks on the flat, and glue each strip.   the addition of a carbon wrap to the end of each section was made by Ranald Hutton , he did his own rod and Ken Bruce saw and liked the idea.  jim

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #32 on: 24/01/2008 at 17:10 »
I think that is a slightly rose coloured view of events!!
Isn't it just :z6 then i suppose the past can get that way

I've reading more about this, since you mentioned it

Funny how many versions there are, everyone jumps on the bandwagon eh! :roll
Even if it has wonky wheels.

I found it intriguing that they ended up bonding a sheet of carbon fibre to a sheet of foam and then cutting the sections and gluing them together to get it to work.
All you have is a synthetic bamboo rod. I see the new versions are even being coloured to look like Cane :z6 Why? :z8
Nature did the job eons ago, seems we cant resist re-inventing it :z4

Long may it continue :z16

Sandy

Jim Doyle

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #33 on: 24/01/2008 at 17:51 »
Aye Sandy, they tend to forget that some of us are still alive from the seventies LOL, mind you its a medical miracle in some cases. :z18  jim

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #34 on: 24/01/2008 at 18:05 »
 :z4 :z4 :z4

Rob Brownfield

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #35 on: 25/01/2008 at 11:40 »
The original B + W Hexagraphs were available in "cane colour" years ago :) I know as i bought one  :oops :oops I sold it very quickly!

As for the pressure bit, of course, the rod is taped on the manderal, so pressure is being applied via the wrap whilst curing, but the autoclave actually forces bubbles to be removed..as i am sure yoiu already know. I did find this on the Harrisson site that goes through the step by step process..with pictures  :z7 :z4 :wink

http://www.harrisonrods.co.uk/production.htm

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #36 on: 25/01/2008 at 13:27 »
Rob

This is what happens when you assume. All our carbon componants are made in autoclaves so i figured anyone else using high grade carbon would be doing the same. Otherwise they will not be curing properly.
Back to this being the likely reason for the high breakages, if they are not :z6
A nice wee bit, the harrisons stuff :z16

theres a good vid on the winston site too, about how they make their rods.

Apparently Orvis have invested millions in new equipment to make the helios and i suppose their future rods, I guess they have recognised the need to match the equipment to the material, with this continuing surge forward in technology. It will be interesting to see if it pans out well for them this year

Sandy

Rob Brownfield

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #37 on: 25/01/2008 at 16:04 »
I believe that Autoclaves are relatively new to the fishing rod trade...but certainly a move in the right direction.

Cant wait for the first camo trout rod  :z7

Mike Barrio

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #38 on: 26/01/2008 at 18:59 »

Cant wait for the first camo trout rod  :z7

I've seen one and had a cast with it ........ but I can't for the life of me remember the brand name Rob, somebody had brought it back from the States I think.

Cheers
Mike

Hamish Young

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #39 on: 26/01/2008 at 19:08 »
Didn't Fladen play around with camouflage rods a couple of years back :? Seem to remember something about that  :wink

Mike Barrio

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #40 on: 26/01/2008 at 19:34 »
Didn't Fladen play around with camouflage rods a couple of years back :? Seem to remember something about that  :wink

I think you're right Hamish ..... again :oops ...... Is there no end to your knowledge? :z4

 :z14
Mike

Mike Barrio

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #41 on: 26/01/2008 at 20:03 »
Here is one for carp Rob :wink

http://www.topfishingtackle.co.uk/productdetail.asp?id2=1524

There are quite a few of these popping up on ebay too.

Cheers
Mike

Jim Eddie

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #42 on: 26/01/2008 at 20:42 »
Aye but every time you lay it down , tou lose it  :z4

 :z18

Jim

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #43 on: 26/01/2008 at 21:47 »
Or stand on it :shock

Hope it has a lifetime warranty :z10

Sandy

Rob Brownfield

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #44 on: 28/01/2008 at 15:35 »
Fox and Shimano are doing camo Carp rods...me..cant see the point of them myself..if i am casting 50 to 100 yards are the fish really going to see the rod?

 




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