Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Mike Barrio

The Scottish Government is currently running a consultation regarding measures for the preservation of Pike.

See: https://consult.gov.scot/marine-scotland/pike-conservation/consultation/subpage.2016-07-07.1474135251/

James Craig

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #1 on: 15/06/2018 at 10:46 »
Interesting to see the following statement:



...which doesn't quite fit with the 'Bob Wyatt'  school of thought. Would be interesting to hear what the pike anglers here think.

James Laraway

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #2 on: 15/06/2018 at 12:20 »
The Scottish Government is currently running a consultation regarding measures for the preservation of Pike.

See: https://consult.gov.scot/marine-scotland/pike-conservation/consultation/subpage.2016-07-07.1474135251/

Sad that we need this but we do...

Derek Roxborough

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #3 on: 15/06/2018 at 13:29 »
According to the local Salmon board , at the time of the consultation on protecting wild fish, Pike are alien Predator species and should be removed  not returned, to the water, not my words , just a repeat of what was said at the meeting, I wonder how this sits with the Government? Derek Roxborough

James Laraway

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #4 on: 15/06/2018 at 15:06 »
According to the local Salmon board , at the time of the consultation on protecting wild fish, Pike are alien Predator species and should be removed  not returned, to the water, not my words , just a repeat of what was said at the meeting, I wonder how this sits with the Government? Derek Roxborough
I used to pike fish a lot, since i was a kid.

if the local boards knew what they were talking if they HAD to remove some pike they should only be considering removing small pike.

The reasons are fairly simple -
big pike eat small pike ( they are much easier to catch than salmon or trout  - which are fast)
if you remove the big ones, as tends to do, all that happens is that you get a massive increase in the overall number of pike in a water - an small pike done mind chasing fast prey like trout ! Ive seen this happen soooo many times.

If pike are in a water system its too late, might as well embrace them - besides if you have decent pike in the system it attracts anglers as a lot of pike anglers not like fly fishing  for them

suspect  this is another poorly thought our consultation by the SG.....

Derek Roxborough

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #5 on: 15/06/2018 at 18:54 »
the thing is James, Pike are an introduced species in the Highlands, and it doesn't always sit well with some I do a bit of fly fishing for pike during the winter, we were told that pike fishers would come to fish for pike here, so we should embrace them , we are still waiting, but the pike are in one of our best trout lochs, but I think there is an uneasy truce, :X2 Derek Roxborough

Rob Brownfield

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #6 on: 18/06/2018 at 07:53 »
Interesting to see the following statement:



...which doesn't quite fit with the 'Bob Wyatt'  school of thought. Would be interesting to hear what the pike anglers here think.

As far as I can see, the wording has got a bit mixed up. However, mortality rates can be high if the fish are badly handled. Big females are far more prone to death than the smaller fish come spring time.

However, there are a number of well known Pike that have been caught far more than once (The Wykeham 40 for starters) and with the proper gear, an unhooking mat and confident handling, they are fine.


Rob Brownfield

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #7 on: 18/06/2018 at 07:55 »
According to the local Salmon board , at the time of the consultation on protecting wild fish, Pike are alien Predator species and should be removed  not returned, to the water, not my words , just a repeat of what was said at the meeting, I wonder how this sits with the Government? Derek Roxborough

Which "local" board are you talking about? The Dee board do not have an issue with existing Pike stocks with records of Pike in the Dee catchment back to 1790.


Rob Brownfield

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #8 on: 18/06/2018 at 09:04 »
Sad that we need this but we do...

And rather sad that the consultation does not really go deep enough.

Rob Brownfield

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #9 on: 18/06/2018 at 15:19 »
Bit of digging at lunchtime at the University. Pike were first recorded in the Dee Catchment was in 1790. A bit before "Sport" anglers were about to point a finger at and about 100 years before the first Rainbow Trout was introduced to Scotland.

First Pike recorded officially in Loch Callater was 1907 during a survey.  I found it interesting that the 6 other surveys right up to the late 90's showed no difference in stock and predator/prey relationship, despite the old adage that once introduced, Pike eat everything.  Also, of all the fish samples (about 40 fish), not one had a trout in its gut, but several had smaller pike. Most had larvae and buzzers of all things. Of the trout surveyed, all had trout and pike fry in the gut.

One last fact, Pike in Callater are the highest recorded population in the UK, and incredibly slow growing due to the year round Arctic conditions. The oldest fish sampled was 11 years old and was only 21" long. Normally at that age they are a good 38-42" long.

James Craig

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #10 on: 19/06/2018 at 09:38 »
One last fact, Pike in Callater are the highest recorded population in the UK, and incredibly slow growing due to the year round Arctic conditions. The oldest fish sampled was 11 years old and was only 21" long. Normally at that age they are a good 38-42" long.

Very interesting - there was a post on another forum about someone catching a pike in Callater using a Mepp. The fish was said to be 10lb in weight and was chapped to help out the wee trout. I wonder what age it was...

A couple of years ago I caught a brownie of 14" out of Loch Vrotachan, and got the feeling it was a very old fish.

Robert MacDonald-Lewis

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #11 on: 19/06/2018 at 12:51 »
The fish was said to be 10lb in weight and was chapped to help out the wee trout.

Would I be right in thinking that this would have the opposite effect? I am sure I read somewhere that the best control of pike numbers is big  pike.

James Laraway

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #12 on: 19/06/2018 at 13:33 »
Would I be right in thinking that this would have the opposite effect? I am sure I read somewhere that the best control of pike numbers is big  pike.

having fished a number of lochs where they have used netting to controll pike numbers i can tell you the exact opposite is true. A few years after netting all you get is an explosion in the numbers of  (small) pike  - which eat more trout than big pike !

Rob Brownfield

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #13 on: 19/06/2018 at 16:35 »
Would I be right in thinking that this would have the opposite effect? I am sure I read somewhere that the best control of pike numbers is big  pike.

Hi Robert,
There have been extensive studies on this, many of which are available online.

There is a rather good book that was published a while back called The Predator Becomes The Prey. In it there is a chapter dedicated to your question.

In brief, once a water has established a healthy Predator/Prey balance, a natural biomass occurs. It fluctuates year on year but effectively, there is a balance and there is a maximum number of "pounds per acre" of fish that can be sustained in a healthy balance. The balance forms a nice "triangle" with a couple of big pike at the top, tapering out to  an abundance, but controlled number of prey fish.

However, remove a number of large females via, say, a netting programme,  and you get a gap. The predators and prey rush to fill that gap! The young pike usually fill the gap first, because they are one of the earliest spawners. By the time the other fish have spawned, the baby pike will be big enough to chomp fry.

Because there is an abundance of fry, the pike rapidly grow, forcing the predator/prey relationship out of balance.

After a couple of years you now have a large number of surviving pike in the 3-6lb range...and they are now big enough to make an impact on, lets say, brown trout stocks. This changes the "triangle" into a "bloated" shape, with the tip much flatter and the sides bowed out.

On top of this, big female pike like nothing better than chomping on a smaller male pike.  Large females are lazy fish. They scavenge, hence dead baiting is successful, or they will take a large prey item (Pike, duck, horse ;) ) and spend time digesting it.

Tagging and tracking programs over a decade on loch Lomond showed that the really big females (30lb+) ate 3-10 times a year. Food tended to be a large item, and the pike would then sit just below the thermocline, slowly digesting the prey item in the much cooler water. its different on shallow lowland water, they are more active, but still prefer fewer large meals than chasing around after agile fish. wasting energy.

So, as a few years pass, we now have an abundance of smaller pike, fewer prey fish, but a lot of female pike now turning cannibalistic. (males stop growing about 8-10lbs in weight, females continue to grow). This starts to change the triangle again. What you end up with is a high number of very big pike, preying on an increasingly diminishing number of average pike, meaning there is an explosion of prey fish! The triangle now has a very  different look with a high number of big fish, a pinched "middle" and a very wide prey base.

There are good examples of this in action. Places like Chew stopped netting a good few years back, they saw an increase in smaller pike, so started stocking bigger trout. Now Chew is producing large numbers of very big pike as the balance is in its third phase (lots of big fish) and the roach, bream and other spawning stock has increased.

However, as time marches on, as long as man does not interfere, waters will return to a balance.

So, in summary, remove large pike, you get a short term benefit, followed by a sudden explosion of small pike for 2-6 years, followed by a period of very large pike, then back to "normal".  This is far more noticeable in non stocked waters.

Sorry its long winded, but I hope it answers your question.

Robert MacDonald-Lewis

Re: Scottish Government Consultation Pike Preservation
« Reply #14 on: 19/06/2018 at 19:43 »
Rob thanks for the detailed response, very informative and interesting.

 




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