[Hamish Young]

In a reply to a post in recent thread elsewhere on the forum I mentioned (and I'm using some of that text again) that my favourite river rod used to be an Orvis Trident, a through actioned "noodle" as a former forum member classed it.

Back then, when I was fishing the Don a fair bit (say 12+ years ago now) I found it always preferable to have a softer rod for short range fishing which, by and large, is river fishing in a nutshell. Now I had the choice of more modern rods such as Scott's and Sage and others but, when I looked for a replacement, I opted for a custom build on Winston BiiX blank which Sandy very kindly built up for me. Those Winstons were fast action, some might have said with a 'wobbly' tip but I never felt so, but the rod simply bent and the bank still recovered quickly. I could 'feel' what was going on through the cork as (when you needed to pop out a longer line) the rod simply bent further into the blank.

Thing is (in case you hadn't figured it out) the rod bent. 

I maintain that a softer rod can help "protect" the lightest of tippets and the finest of hooks when playing fish.
Having done some casting instruction recently with an improver, it was rewarding to note that moving to a softer rod (a Vision Onki - interesting, try one) made for some really big improvements in her casting, at end of the lesson she tried my Mackenzie FX1 9' #6wt I happened to have with me and bingo   Even better results - although I think her husband was less amused at the potential for another fishing toy purchase

Thing is, why did it all come together 

Well... obviously my instruction  but when we sat down and debriefed it was clear that the client preferred a softer rod. Or let me put it another way... a rod that bends for more than just the first few inches.

It got me thinking and I had a play with some double handers the following day.  In my 'collection' is a 15' rod that is based on a Daiwa CF98 blank. For those who don't know, that is old. Very old. It wobbles (would love to try some different rings on it) but it also bends and when chucking a 75' head line around that's a nice thing.  Didn't like it with shooting heads on, except a tournament head, but I liked that the rod bent. It was somehow comforting.

So I continue to wonder....  we produce lighter, faster rods which are often casting cannons... which is nice. But we have also gone to the extremes of developing gear designed to mitigate that stiffness and provide what a softer rod would naturally provide... have we gone too far in the quest for lightness and stiffness

Where does the future lie in rod design and action
What is more important...
 feel
 weight
 bendiness

I don't have answers as it will be down to individual preference at the end of the day. But I do know it seems I like a rod that bends and that I have come to appreciate those qualities more of late. Maybe it's because I'm less inclined to pick up a rod and try and cast to the horizon than I used to, instead I'll pick it up and see what loop shapes I can generate, what it's like at real fishing ranges.

So it's possible that over time it's just me that's changed but, whatever the reason, it's why I'm part of the way through changing out a significant number of rods for things that bend a bit more.

I'm never going to move to split cane, but I do have an Epic 'fastglass' rod coming my way....

H

[Mike Barrio]

Lots of interesting points in there H ........ I've basically had the same experience for a number of years now

[Terry Coging]

Very good points Hamish.  A pal asked me why I liked the FX1 as we were de tackling in the car park. I showed him the bottom section and bent it, saying "rods that bent like that used to be considered sloppy, nothing sloppy about this one though!"  Must be a coincidence but I used to use a Tony Fordham 10' built on a CF98 blank (I used to sell CF98's 30 odd years ago) and that was a through action -  the FX1 reminded me of that.  I used to under line the CF98 10' rod and get the butt end going for greater distance. So I was also wondering, where is rod design going? It looks like we can now get a rod that can do more or less anything.  I would not us a tippet of less than 6lb on the FX1 #6 though.  I'll still use the Shaky #4 and #5 for that (until I treat myself again = #4 FX1  )

[Derek Roxborough]

I come from the" Buy it and use it" school of rod buying, having had many rods in my 60+ years of fly fishing, very few of them have been seriously expensive ( I am a tight Git         )and only one or two have been lemons, one was an Orvis, I could not get a straight line out with this rod no matter what I tried, I sold it on and the Guy seems to be well pleased with it, he uses it for boat work , I never tried that, I do find that a middle to tip gives me a better casting action than a through action but, I can over line a rod and get a through action  I found this out on my 3 wt when I picked up the wrong reel and ended up at a hill loch with a 3wt rod and a 5wt line, it handled nicely and was actually a pleasure to use, so, to me just about any rod can be made to perform , by tweeking the line options, up or down, but really only for short lining, if you are casting to the Horizon then stick to the rod Parameters,  Derek Roxborough

[Terry Coging]

I have been trying out different weights and models of Bario lines for a while now and seem to have come in a circle to where I was 30/40 years ago. My best results back then were with a Garcia Long Belly lines matched to a 10' CF98 rod. By underlining it was possible to stick a lot of line up in the air.  Now, all those years later I am doing a similar thing with the 10' #6 FXi and a GT90.
So, a modern version of and old theme. The main difference being improvements with directional change, less effort and  the range of lines that the FX1 will handle with almost no compromise.
For me the 'go to' line with the FX1 is the GT90.  The SLX stays in the bag unless it gets very windy,  or when there is little room for a back cast or when streamer fishing.  The Mallard comes out for the lighter dries, having the finest tip.

[Rob Brownfield]

Quick bit of clarity, because it causes sooo much confusion. There is a difference between taper and action, despite them using the same descriptions.  A rod with a fast taper will be stiff, a rod with a fast action, will recover quickly but could be any taper. With that cleared up, onto my story....

I had an evening of two halves last night on Loriston.

I started with a 6 weight 9'6" Diamondback Flawless rod (Soooooo awesome) which would be considered a medium taper but it has a fast action. It is a rod that throws a good loop and will cast "fishing" distances easily. However, when hooking a fish, it takes on a really deep curve that was perfect for last night. I hooked a "bow" of 4-4.5lbs on a size 16 F-fly and 4lb tippet at maximum range and it just took off for the far bank. However, the rod very quickly got the better of it and it was soon unhooked in the margins before swimming away.

As the night wore on, the fish pushed out and the wind picked up. Time to switch to "The Beast"!

So, out with a 7 weight Recon. Fast taper and fast action meant a complete change in casting. Line was a long belly Partridge Reservoir jobbie and I was able to just reach the fish that were now topping a good 30 yards out. Awesome rod, but much harder work to get things flying (line will have influence too).  Timing became critical and I found myself concentrating on the cast rather than the fishing.  Still managed two smaller "bows" though, both on a sedgehopper.

What was noticeable was the time it took to land those two smaller fish. I could not really lean into the fish as the rod is so stiff. despite having a heavier tippet (6lb) and larger fly, I felt that any more pressure would have pinged the hook. With the Flawless I just clamped up and bullied the fish in.

There was another chap fishing and he came over for a chat. He mentioned the distance I was casting so I handed him the Recon. Nope, he really struggled with it. He handed me his rod, a Sharpes "Gordon", and it felt very slow compared to the Recon. But casting was a breeze.

So...as I have always said, if you want a fishing rod, get a moderate taper, fast action rod.  If you want to spend time watching back casts and forming perfect loops, get a stiff rod And more recently I have discovered the joys of an S-glass fast action rod for short range fishing on the river (and Loriston ). Mine bends through to the hand but boy does it handle fish well and cast soooo easy.

[Derek Roxborough]

Ah! The Garcia Long Belly, I kept mine going for years and you got a fly box with it, or was that the Galion?, any way I liked that line, I used it with  an 8ft Shakespear International for boat and bank, it was because I nearly wrecked my shoulder with a 10-6ins 8wt, it was 2 years before I could used a longer rod  but I stayed with a 5wt as I have yet, at the moment Rob I still like carbon fibre and at the price of the Epic glass I will be staying with it for some time yet, State pensions only go so far    Derek Roxborough

[Rob Brownfield]

the price of the Epic glass I will be staying with it for some time yet,

There are much cheaper S-glass rods out there...arguably just as good.

That last one I built, the reel seat and handle cost more than the blank, but its a stunner!

[Derek Roxborough]

I believe you Rob,but when they come down to the price of a ShakespearAgility, I will wait 'til then ,
Derek Roxborough

[Terry Coging]

I'm gradually giving most of my rods away to our club juniors or newbies. So, which rods would I not part with? Obviously the #6 FX1 for all round fishing. The Agility 2's, being a 10' #5 and a 9' #4. Then a cane 8'6" #5 built for me 30 years ago.
Someone once said "There is nothing like the best".
It's subjective, but for me the FX1 is the best all round performer. The Agility 2's are the best value and a pleasure to use. The cane rod has the best memories.

Can't see me ever getting a stiff, fast, tippy rod again.

[Derek Roxborough]

 so it's a Rolls Royce for me the next time?  easker1

[Terry Coging]

so it's a Rolls Royce for me the next time?  easker1

No expensive cars for me Derek. Waste of money.  My fishing Wagon is 14 years old and our 'good' car is 10. See no reason to change. Fishing tackle, food and drink are a different matter entirely 

[Euan Innes]

When I have more time I will add my 2p to the above but right now I have spent a day with  the love of my life and really appreciate the softer things in life! My Guideline Fario 9' #4 is not fast but throws a lovely line. Not very far, but far enough to catch fish and feel the heart beat of the trout that you are attached to. It doesn't like beaded flies, except for short range stuff, but unweighted things are ace.
Maybe it is my age but some things are not as stiff as they used to be!  

Euan

[Derek Roxborough]

It was the buy the Best comment , I drive a Punto,  Derek Roxborough

[Rob Brownfield]

My Guideline Fario 9' #4 is not fast but throws a lovely line. Not very far, but far enough to catch fish and feel the heart beat of the trout that you are attached to. It doesn't like beaded flies, except for short range stuff, but unweighted things are ace.

CRS or normal? With a #4 SLX I found mine is surprisingly good at putting flies a long way...way further than a 4 weight should...almost to the backing.

But best of all, when you kook something..wow...a proper fight but in control. I was really able to lay into the fish on Loriston and get them in quick on 3lb tippet.

[Euan Innes]

Rob,
It is a five year old Fario 9' #4 4 piece.

Over the years I too have had differing levels of stiffness in my hand. My first proper rod was a Ryobi Masterline Double Top -  a two piece rod that had, you guessed it, two top sections. This made for a 9'6" fast actioned #6 or a 10'6" slower actioned #'6. Two rods, one line covered a lot of bases for me and I loved that rod. Fast wasn't actually that fast in those days, more medium.
Then I started at the shop and a lot of rods went through my hands. The fashion for stiffness started around that time with Sage taking the lead and other manufacturers tried to keep up. Bruce and Walker brought out the JTS (John Tomlinson Special) which, although sold as a stiff rod that could carry a whole DT6, turned out to be particularly horrible, spineless piece of carbon which is why you don't see them these days.
Bob Church, a field leader on the stiffness scale as most of his were like pokers, brought out the Dave Shipman Drifter which Trout Fisherman magazine said was a softer action. Well if that is soft then the others must have had blanks stuffed with Viagra pills. Lifting a #7 sunk line from a boat was easy and a DT6 floater went a bloody long way But all in all it was too much and snapped nylon all too easily. How Mr Shipman could fish his own buzzers on light nylon had me wondering if he ever actually owned one of the rods....
I was slowly moving away from a rod that actually fished towards casting tools.
Loomis GLX #7 came up next and that gave me tennis elbow and a good lesson in line weights as well as a passion for shorter rods. There was one exception to that passion and that was a Clan 11'3" #5 that had a sweet middle, almost through action that threw a beautiful line and tamed everything from trout to salmon. One of the biggest regrets of my life was selling that rod in what can only have been a fit of utter madness. It did start me back down the softer side of the street though, as far as trout rods go.
Sandy's Scott rods were ace as were short Fulling Mill rods and as the flies became smaller (spiders at Haddo anyone?) the actions became less stiff. Not soft but closer to the middle than previous rods.
I now find my Orvis Access 10' #4 a little too stiff but have Skagit plans for that one. It was "based" on the Helios which it fails to match as the Helios has a much better middle action, a clue as to why it was dearer and more sought after. My bamboo is lovely for the close stuff and plays fish nicely because it bends.
I have tried many, many trout rods over the years (but not as many as Rob!! ) and if you were to draw a graph of when the industry told us that we needed a stiffer rod you could pretty much map my ownership of rods! Yes I have been a slave to "fashion" but that "fashion" has come back to usable rods and not something for stirring a fire. Some lines need a stiff rod (Skandi casting works better with one) but actual fishing needs feel and the ability to play a fish. This moment of clarity only comes once you have spent a lot of time and money, definitely money, to reach it. There are many factors that influence, not just the rod makers and it is possibly harder now for a young chap taking up the sport.
Before you all go PC on me I said chap because a girl will just pick up the rod and fish with it. She is not as easily steered as us blokes and will "feel" the rod better rather than trying to hit the far bank with sheer effort and muscle. My favourite fishing phrase, possibly of all time, comes from Jerry French where he states that there  is too much "Casterbation" these days and people don't fish the water, they cast across it.
Adverts that start with "do you need extra yards..." suck in us blokes and have us reaching for our wallets faster than Clint Eastwood could draw a gun. Guideline snuck in the Fario in a market saturated with sticks and quietly changed  a lot of perceptions as to what constituted a "fishing" rod. Now there are more "fishing" rods available than ever before we are officially spoiled. This only really happened when the makers spoke to the users and that is really only a recent thing.

So what have I learned? The same that I have learned with nearly everything - don't listen to a sales pitch. I had a PERFECT Clan rod and sold it looking for the next best thing which didn't happen until the Fario. I still look at rod reviews, still try as many as I can but now I can stop looking. I tried Hamish's FX1 salmon rod and hated it. The action did not really suit me but it does him. Previously I would have just ponied up the £1000 and bought it because it is the latest thing. A guy I know on another forum calls it The Great Equipment Race, the musthavethelatestthingorIwilldie syndrome and I am off that carousel now. It happens in every pastime and I have stopped running.
I have loved nearly all my previous rods and hated the rest but would not change a thing about how, where and when I used them. Grahams of Inverness have reintroduced the Diawa Whisker 11'3" as a #7/8 Sea Trout and #8/9 Grilse Special because of demand. I may have top pop in and buy one of those as I once tried one that an Irish mate of mine had but never did get around to buying one. As this is based on a rod design over twenty years old it is not the latest thing, OK?
Pity you can't get DT Wetcel IIs any more 

Plus ca change, plus la meme chose.....

Euan

[Hamish Young]

You must be on holiday dude.... I think that's more words (on any fishing subject) that I've seen you write on any forum at any time 
Nearly all makes sense too 
Some interesting stuff in there, I will have to get the FX 1 single handers into your mitts and see what you think, I believe you will be utterly smitten 
H 

[Dave Robb]

There are much cheaper S-glass rods out there...arguably just as good.

That last one I built, the reel seat and handle cost more than the blank, but its a stunner!

Rob, what other glass rods are good?  Asking because I fancy my next rod to be an Epic but don’t have the £600 -£700 at the moment to buy a ready made one (I don’t want to build my own, don’t have time or the space to do it, young kids and all that).

I use an Orvis Recon 10’ #5 at the moment as my main rod, backed up by a 9’ #4 but I want something ‘different’ for my next rod, hence thinking about glass.

I’ve seen all the comments about how good these Epic rods are and love the colours they come in.

[Rob Brownfield]

Rob, what other glass rods are good? 

I can highly recommend the Taniwha Rodworks  S-helix blanks. £99.

You mention Epic...well..this quote will give you a clue to the ancestry of the S-helix:

"They are made for me by a designer whose early career included designing high performance fly rods for a well regarded New Zealand brand before establishing his own advanced composites manufacturing facility based in China. "

Remembering that Epic are also now manufactured in the Far East, the S-helix represents amazing value for money but with a top notch action and quality.

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/537567069/taniwha-premium-s-helix-translucent-s?ref=shop_home_feat_3

Worth looking at Marks self build handle and guide kits too. Pretty good quality for £42.

However, I went for full custom and Mark kindly dyed a maple reel seat to match the olive blank. I love it!! I also used top quality ALPS stripper guide and Snake Brand guides.

With an aluminium tube as well, I think I came in under £200 for an 8 foot 5 weight.

I did buy some glass blanks off another supplier/manufacturer based in Scotland (but imports from the Far East), but quality was hit and miss.

[Dave Robb]

 

Not too pricey at all really.

[Euan Innes]

You must be on holiday dude.... I think that's more words (on any fishing subject) that I've seen you write on any forum at any time 
Nearly all makes sense too 
Some interesting stuff in there, I will have to get the FX 1 single handers into your mitts and see what you think, I believe you will be utterly smitten 
H 

Aye well there was me sitting in the cool of the villa with a second gin...
Yes I do want to try a single hander FX1 as there is a 10' #5 or #6 hole in my trout armoury that might have to be filled at some point. I also need to try an Onki in that size too.

Euan

[Dave Robb]

Those with experience of G Loomis rods, any idea how an NRX green would compare to my Orvis Recon?  Seen one on offer.

After reading the comments on this thread, it’s difficult to trust reviews as so many ‘top’ rods are winning shootouts because they can put out full lines.

I can just about go to the backing on the Recon, but never really need to do so.

Anyway, the G Loomis. Worth looking at?

[Rob Brownfield]

Those with experience of G Loomis rods, any idea how an NRX green would compare to my Orvis Recon?  Seen one on offer.

After reading the comments on this thread, it’s difficult to trust reviews as so many ‘top’ rods are winning shootouts because they can put out full lines.

I can just about go to the backing on the Recon, but never really need to do so.

Anyway, the G Loomis. Worth looking at?

I think the marketing bumf gives a clue...."This rod is for advanced casters, or casters that plan to be someday"

[Rob Brownfield]

As this is based on a rod design over twenty years old it is not the latest thing, OK?

I have been going through my "box of unloved rods" with the thought of getting rid of some. Its been an eye opening to say the least!

I actually have the predecessor to the Whisker 11'3". It was the Osprey, same length and was rated 7-9. It came with a plug in extension for spey casting.  Possibly one of the forerunners of a modern Switch rod?

Anyway, a waggle had me giggling so off into the field I went. Boy can it put out a long line with ease. Slow everything down and the rod does the work. It loads and "catapults" the line out with very little effort. That rod I am keeping!!

Next out the box was a Normark Norboron 10 foot 7/8 weight.  Now this was a very desirable rod back in the day and I had to wait until a second hand one came up for sale. I remember thinking "WOW".  It was the fastest, most powerful fly rod I had ever used.

What did I think now..."my goodness, this is not a fast rod at all!" It bends..and bends quite deeply. Agin though, it was easy to cast with and just laid out a lone beautifully. That's another keeper!

Next was a Bob Church 10' 3" Chew Valley reservoir rod built on a Daiwa blank.  Rated...wait for it, 8-10...for trout!! Extremely stiff butt and a very soft top. I remember using this at Loriston with a Cortland 444 WF 8 and being able to pick up fish a long way out. That tip, I am sure, came from a different rod, maybe a 7 weight!! I rebuilt this rod a while back as it was looking a bit rough. I use it for light pike, but its not seen daylight for about 8 years. Its getting kept as well.

As a comparison, I then had a cast of my Recon 7.  It really was much harder to get the same easy distance. Might have been partly because it was a foot and a bit shorter than the others, but whilst I could get sexy loops with it, it was hard work in comparison.

And on the issue of 20 year old technology, I am about to build a couple of new carp rods on Harrison Ballista blanks. These are still being sold some 22 years after hitting the market. No updates, no tweaks. They are a progressive action, bending right through to the handle.

They were sold as long range rods back then and could put a lead 150 yards. Harrison also do a range of more "modern" rods, with fancy 1 and 3k weaves, improved resins etc. These rods, at well over twice the price for the blank, will cast 130 yards! This is despite modern materials, fast actions and reduced weight.

When you compare side by side, the Ballista does all the work, it loads easy and just unwinds like a catapult, firing a lead miles! The other blanks, well, you have to really trash them to get them loaded and they just don't have that "feel".

And back to Daiwa. Daiwas latest long range top spec carp rod is 13 foot, and has a test curve of 3.75lbs. This means its optimum casting weight is 4-4.5oz and it will hit 180 yards. Its a bit of a poker!!

However, back in 1982, Daiwa released the legendary Amorphous Whisker AKN 12 H. A 12 foot 2.75tc rod designed to cast 3oz.  It also can cast 180 yards. Some people can cast over 200 yards with it!! they still fetch £250 on ebay, with ones that are in new condition fetching over £300.

So, in 36 years, Daiwa have managed to produce a brand new rod for £400 that can cast as far as its flagship model from 1982, but cannot match the feel, the action or the softness that allows fish to be played quickly and without fear of breaking he line.

Its a funny old world!!

oh..i am definitely keeping my four AKN's!!!!

[Euan Innes]

Many a good tune on an old fiddle Rob!
Sandy has written a good piece in Eat Sleep Fish on this very subject so I guess that wisdom does come with age!

Euan