[Hamish Young]

If anyone can come up with an answer to how the decisions made regarding the grading of some waters in 2018 by Marine Scotland can be explained I'd really like to hear it. Locally the Beauly DSFB and the Ness & Beauly Fisheries Trust have yet to get a response to numerous emails and formal letter correspondence requesting an explanation. They've been ignored and that's just not on.

I think the reclassification of many waters is a crock of sh!t but I'm maybe missing something. Don't get me wrong, I've not killed a Salmon I've caught for many years (maybe the last one was on the Thurso with Euan a long time ago) as I prefer to see them swim off - but I do resent the actions being taken by Marine Scotland that are likely to impact on more than just the club I'm a member of as they make no sense to me or anyone else I've spoken to.

The Scottish Government must be (I hope) thinking about extending the 'support for angling clubs' beyond the two year cycle announced this year - if they're not then many a club will be in the sh!t.

H 

[Bob Mitchell]

Do not know how they can change a river from a cat.2 to a cat.3. during the season. Marine Scotland have returns from all Scottish rivers for many years past and should know how they are preforming.
Bob.

[Rob Brownfield]

No joined up thinking, no long term planning, lots of knee jerk reaction, plenty of posturing with little to back it up, lots of jumping from one lobby to the other to win a little more support....

[Derek Roxborough]

But what ever you do Don't mention Salmon farming,  Derek Roxborough

[Hamish Young]

Salmon farming is not one of my favourite things.... you might even say I have a 'bee in my bunnet' about it.... or that it 'rips my knitting'.... or 'really boils my p!ss'.

But, in this instance, Salmon farming is an entirely separate issue. I take the point that it needs to be dealt with, but the grading of rivers by Marine Scotland is about as kosher as Salmon farms reaching RSPCA 'assured' status.

Each is ridiculous and each warrants distinct investigation.

H

[Peter Davidson]

No joined up thinking, no long term planning, lots of knee jerk reaction, plenty of posturing with little to back it up, lots of jumping from one lobby to the other to win a little more support....

This seems an excellent and authentic description of most governments these days. Gold star to Rob and he should be elected as the Forum Political analyst

[Derek Roxborough]

after attending one of the Meetings over the wild fish reforms   we were asked what did we think   would be a  way forward , BUT whatever you do don't mention fish farming as that is historical, there was a guy from marine Scotland at the meeting . what ever you think, the biggest influence on the demise of the salmon is  salmon farming, even the poachers couldn't make the impact that salmon farming has  had, we had poachers but we had salmon and seatrout on loch Maree, so I wonder what the Scottish government thinks the problem is, if it isn't salmon farming,

[Euan Innes]

The problem is guv'ment, Scottish or otherwise.
If you can keep those funding you happy, those voting for you in certain areas happy whilst all those around them are suffering, then you my son, are an MSP.
No one has the balls to call total C&R, except 90% of the salmon fishermen. There are still a reducing number of salmon anglers that need to kill, despite the low numbers, ghillies included.
I have listened to a lot of Aprils podcasts on that mind numbing commute recently and I now have a very good picture of how Canada and America have treated the same issues, and almost screwed it all up. Hatchery fails, indiscriminate killing, wrong reasons for introducing new breed stocks and so on, and we seem to be going the same way.
My views might be a bit extreme these days and for that you can thank Dermot Wilson for introducing me to C&R.  There are fewer fish in Scottish rivers and fewer anglers going for them. The experience has not changed, the locations have not changed so those need protecting, as do the fish.
The categories make no sense at all to me. Just stop killing fish, let them spawn and help them all we can and they might come back. If we can do that and the numbers are still in decline, then the fault lies elsewhere and certainly NOT with the salmon anglers.
I might be a bit tunnel visioned but I do love the salmon. Shame our "leaders" and experts don't.
A-holes.....

 
Continuing to let fish go, whatever the species, since 2005.

[Hamish Young]

what ever you think, the biggest influence on the demise of the salmon is  salmon farming, even the poachers couldn't make the impact that salmon farming has  had, we had poachers but we had salmon and seatrout on loch Maree, so I wonder what the Scottish government thinks the problem is, if it isn't salmon farming,

No, sorry Derek but I can't accept that as an axiom.

The greatest blight on our landscape and certainly the cause of the almost total destruction of the West Coast Sea Trout populations is Salmon farming - agreed.

However, nationally (in Scotland) the impact of the farmed Salmon is smaller in 'Salmon' population terms than you might believe. There are a greater number of contributive factors - mostly man made or as a direct result of our actions - which impact on the broader bio-diversity and the thing to remember is the impact of Salmon farming is considerably less (almost negligible, in fact) on the East coast.
That does not mean that the farming of Salmon isn't part of the problem (without dispute it is) but it is not the biggest influence.

Whatever the 'causative agents' in the ups and downs of our salmonid populations it remains that the calculations used to determine river categorisation are beyond my comprehension and, apparently, beyond explanation by Marine Scotland to their stakeholders.

This is most vexing.

H

[Bob Mitchell]

Salmon farming has increased as the numbers of wild salmon have decreased so where is the problem. ??
Looking at my river it is surprising that any fish survive to get to the sea.
 Banks falling in have killed off the clean spawning  gravel with the loss of vast amounts of fly life such as March Browns/Large dark olives/Yellow sallys and many more. The river is getting shallower which means it heats up more in summer? Goosanders and there friends are eating everything they can. Sewage is coming in which amongst other things encourages blanket weed. Beavers are felling trees that are falling in the river and causing further damage to the banks.Freshwater lice are having a field day in the warmer water and that is only the start.
I will keep taking the odd fish for the table as long as I am allowed until some other effort is made to sort out some of these problems.
Bob.

[Hamish Young]

It remains the case that Marine Scotland have yet to give any reasons for their new conservation measures.

It also remains the case that  - as is always the way - that the reasons for the decline in the populations of our anadromous salmonids will be the cause of much disagreement 

[Derek Roxborough]

  since the end of the last war , what would be the major influence on Migratory fish east and west, what has happened ( Apart from Global warming) that would have an effect on these species, we had coastal netting and poaching yet we still had  sufficient stocks to support both sport and commercial fishing, I worked on a bag net station  with an average catch of over 2,400 fish , the Achiltiebuie bag nets had 3 times that, the Clachtol Bag nets had over 2,000 for the season , yet all the well known rivers had decent stocks of returning fish, so what do you think happened Hamish? what other problems could there be? even the seals didn't have this effect ,  Derek   Roxborough

[Hamish Young]

Of course anything I suggest is my opinion...

Following the Second World War a discernable and quantifiable (where accurate catch returns were being made) decline in the stocks of Salmon all around the North Atlantic 'population base' was noted. Although fish continued to be caught the trend was definitely downward and particularly in those rivers formerly blessed with populations of Springers.
Indeed I recall having the chat with the old skipper I worked with in the late 80s who ran a bag netting station on Ardnamurchan in Kentra Bay and we spent an interesting Saturday pouring over his records as he was very clear on there being a definite 8 year cycle in fish populations/numbers - but I digress. His records showed a downward turn from around the late '40s (when his Dad had run the nets) compared to the pre-war period. Of course, there was no Salmon farming then.
 
Unquestionably there are other activities where in an effort to control or profit from nature we have had an effect on fish populations (Salmon included) across every element of their life-cycle.  In Scotland the rapid expansion of hydro electric schemes in the post-war without adequate (even today) fish passes or concern for water flow led to the loss of vast amounts of spawning grounds and, I suspect, the extinction of several strains.

Post war afforestation has also contributed to habitat loss and has a continued effect in terms of acid 'wash' through fish habitat throughout the Highlands.

Then we come to one of the most significant factors.
In the 1950s the Salmon feeding grounds around Greenland and the Faroe Islands were discovered.  For me the exploitation of these grounds by fishermen is unquestionably the single largest impact on Salmon populations across the North Atlantic area commercial fishing industry was established. There was no 'sustainable management' and the sea gave up huge numbers of fish until there was little to catch any more.

All of the above are significant enough, but the coup de grāce in many places (Scotland included) might be considered as the development of coastal Salmon farming since the 1980's.

Be under no illusion, I am no fan of Salmon farming in its current form. I do consider it to be a significant contributor to the loss of  Sea Trout (in particular) and  Salmon populations across the West coast - but for me it is a contributing factor rather than the most single damaging contributor.

More to say but I'm late for work!

H

[Derek Roxborough]

have to agree with you about the Cyclical event Graphs for loch Maree show this , catching and fishing for spawning fish at the latter part of the year played its part in this, the fishing effort then diminished, until some sort of recovery took place, and then the regulars returned , and the cycle started again, the Salmon farm in loch ewe started in 1985 at a low period in the cycle  there was no recovery, from a seasonal average of over 2000 to less than 300 in 3 years, now it's probably a lot less, but the fishers aren't there
either . there was a salmon farm at Munlochy bay for while , but it wasn't a success, as I said we had poachers and bag nets and a viable sport fishery , this all went down hill when salmon farms started, perhaps the Atlantic Salmon trust should have bought out the Farms ?  Derek Roxborough

[Hamish Young]

So.... has anyone got any insight to the mystical way Marine Scotland have come about determining the 2018 categorisation of rivers in Scotland 

[Derek Roxborough]

No Hamish they are a power unto theirselves,  do any of them have any salmon fishing experience? I doubt it they rely on the returns from the rivers  but they may not be accurate, so you are stuck with them, for better or worse, I noted the Quotation from G H Nall , he did a lot of work on Loch Maree with William Menzies, I have Trout & Sea Trout by Menzies with findings by Nall,     Derek Roxborough

[Rob Brownfield]

So.... has anyone got any insight to the mystical way Marine Scotland have come about determining the 2018 categorisation of rivers in Scotland 

The same way as many Scottish government "departments" calculate things. You take evidence from dubious sources and present it as fact. and repeat, repeat, repeat until people believe you.

At best, catch returns give a very loose indication of what's being caught. With fewer anglers you get a lower catch return, with more anglers, a higher catch return (in general).  It is not rocket science...but it does appear to be used as "factual" science by the Scottish Government.

Add into the equation of weather conditions making rivers unfishable for periods of time, people not reporting catches, fish being caught and returned more than once, people claiming Kelts in catch returns, fish smaller than 1lb not needing to be recorded...you soon see that a more accurate way of recording the number of fish in a river is to post a notice on the river bank inviting them to afternoon tea and then counting how many turn up!

I know it is not easy, I know we are talking about something that is hard to spot in its natural surroundings and that moves up and down the river making counting even harder, but to present as "fact" some of the findings is just wrong.

[Ivor Duffus]

So.... has anyone got any insight to the mystical way Marine Scotland have come about determining the 2018 categorisation of rivers in Scotland 

 How can they evaluate rivers in there current state with no back end run  .

[James Laraway]

I hate to say it but i think they got it right for the Aberdeenshire Don. The numbers of fish in the river have been going down and down...

I think they have it wrong for the nairn as when you 'marry' Cat 1 status for next year with the 'fill your boots' number of salmon you are allowed to keep i dont think it does anyone any favours....

[Derek Roxborough]

Marine Scotland were asked recently," What would be the penalty for taking a salmon from a Cat 3 river?,"
 the answer was " we will have to get back to you" you would think they would have some Idea ? Derek Roxborough

[Hamish Young]

I'm reasonably determined to chase this up with my MSP. It's not because I have any particular need or desire to knock the occasional silver tourist on the head, far from it, but the apparent incompetence of those with the designated authority to administer the conservation measures is palpable in my eyes. This breeds resentment and distrust, at a time when neither is at all helpful, within the angling community. Time they were taken to task.
H 

[James Laraway]

Depends who your MSP is Hamish.

The current SG would rather support foreign fish farming companies ( even though they employ very few people in low skilled jobs - which is probably costing the economy more in losses through the collapse of wild fish that is gained through fish farming)  than anglers ( particulalry as salmon fishing is seen as a 'rich mans sport') - so if you MSP is SNP well....

[Peter Davidson]

Depends who your MSP is Hamish.

The current SG would rather support foreign fish farming companies ( even though they employ very few people in low skilled jobs - which is probably costing the economy more in losses through the collapse of wild fish that is gained through fish farming)  than anglers ( particulalry as salmon fishing is seen as a 'rich mans sport') - so if you MSP is SNP well....

And the evidence for the above is???????????????????????
That'll be under the same criteria as the SG should, according to this thread, be applying to the classification of salmon rivers.

[James Laraway]

Hi  Peter, you think about the jobs wild salmon fishing supports say for people traveling to Scotland for a few days fishing. They drive up ( petrol bought on route) , eat in restaurants, drink in bars, buy stuff at local tacklehops, stay in hotels. They have a gillie and maybe a guide. There are bailiffs. Without the revenue estates would suffer affecting the other estate workers...All of the above supports a lot of jobs.  Money that stays in the community and helps support it.  Fish farming has  low paid jobs ( and not a huge amount compared to what fishing supports)and the companies being foreign take all the profit elsewhere. I hope that makes sense ?

[Peter Davidson]

Fish farming has  low paid jobs ( and not a huge amount compared to what fishing supports)and the companies being foreign take all the profit elsewhere. I hope that makes sense ?

It would make sense - if it were true and this is why I broke my self made rule not to discuss fish farming with rod fishermen.
This thread started on what criteria the SG used to classify the salmon rivers of our fair country and it was highlighted, by many, they appeared to be ignorant of what was believed to be true by the river users. Fair argument and I have no problem with that, indeed I find it interesting as one who has negotiated with SG on fishing matters. Although mainly shellfish orientated I was on the committee which pushed through legislation to allow shooting of predator seals in river mouths and often tussled with Prof. Ian Boyd about actual seal numbers compared to reported seal numbers. Therein lies a probable more productive discussion on what happens to all the salmon - do you know how much fish a seal eats and do you know how many more seals surround the SCOTTISH coast since they have been protected?
The starting wage for an entrant into any of the large salmon producing companies is £19k at aged 18 or over, rising to £23k within 3 years.  There is a new onshore £90 million installation being built on Skye and recruiting is now starting to fill the 55 initial positions. Gael Force Marine, Kishorn Fairwinds Engineering and many other companies who supply the fishing industry would not survive without the money invested by whoever involved in fish farming. It is not all good - as the rod fishing fraternity when seen from outside by other land and water users. Salmon farming has many faults but without it the west coast of the Highlands would be a much poorer place. Believe me - I really DO know - I have spent over 30 years working with tourism, fishing, community project financing, fish farming, and scallop diving.
I can already hear Mr Roxburgh howling in the background and probably calls for me to be struck off the forum but what REALLY annoys me is when people who know a lot about their own interests is them waving their arms about to grab hold of the biggest easiest target when things get rough - no matter the cost!
I will stop as really, I know I'm wasting time, people's minds are already made up regardless of actual fact.