[Aitor]

Hi all,

A couple of months ago I started mentoring an intermediate caster in his way to the Spanish casting instructor certification.

He did recently ask me about the roll cast. We discussed the advantages of getting some kind of anchor when making rolls on grass. He has already seen in practice how that helps. However he has noticed that, even with that artificial anchoring in place, a roll cast on grass still asks for more effort than an overhead cast to the same distance. And he asks why. What would you tell him to explain it?

Thanks.

[Hamish Young]

For me, the grass is the problem.
I think I might start by telling him that performing a roll cast well on grass is bloody tricky.
I might then go on to say he would be better attempting this cast on water first in order to grasp the essentials of making the cast - but mainly getting his head around tension. The lack of which is the enemy of the grass roll-caster.
If he is expending more effort in achieving the roll cast then, to me, he is putting too much effort into the cast and that has to be down to a lack of tension which in turn means he's not loading the rod properly and not making an effective cast.
It might boost his confidence to make the casts successfully on water first then see if he can adapt to grass subsequently

Will the assessment be done on water or grass

If on water then it's a no brainer (to me) about where he should practice and continuing to practice on grass will almost certianly lead to bad habits.

H

[Aitor]

If he is expending more effort in achieving the roll cast then, to me, he is putting too much effort into the cast and that has to be down to a lack of tension which in turn means he's not loading the rod properly and not making an effective cast.


Will the assessment be done on water or grass

So in your view you need the same effort to put the fly at the same distance with a roll and with an overhead cast?

The test will be on grass.

[Marc Fauvet]

hi Aitor,
since the fluff is anchored (and i'm guessing solidly as with a slotted screwdriver or simply attached to a stake or whatever) i personally don't find that it takes any more effort.in fact, it's the easiest way to make lovely roll casts even though it's unrealistic from a fishing point of view.
however, i'm thinking that your reply might have something to do with the line sliding back towards the caster after the casting stroke because we see this of course on grass/slick surfaces but also on water in slomo videos.

                                                                                         ?

cheers,
marc

[Hamish Young]

I typed a long and complicated reply to this, my phone rang and when I returned my session timed out - very annoying 

Essentially my reply (now lost) said no, I don't think effort is necessarily the same but I do think it is different.

It's not unreasonable for the candidate to suggest that it requires more 'effort' to make a roll cast because of the need to break the line free of it's anchor (surface tension) because id will feel different to an overhead cast - very different. Like the overhead cast we are accelerating to a stop (I know one reader of this who will be looking to shoot me now) but for me the roll cast requires the application of effort at the 'end' of the cast to be markedly quicker and more sudden than in an overhead cast as rod rotation in the roll cast is faster and over a shorter period.
So power/effort application is different, not necessarily more - but I can see why someone would say 'more'.

I also said that testing on grass sucks. But what do I know Very little

I'm back in a few days, will see if this has grown horns in that time

H

[Mike Barrio]

I really liked Matt's demos on this, when he used the water bottles

Cheers
Mike

[Aitor]

I see your point, Hamish.

I need to clarify my question also.
I was referring to roll cast on grass and with the fly artificially anchored.
It is much easier than on water because you don't need to overcome the "grasp" of the water on the line, and the anchor doesn't slide back in the slightest. However I feel, and so does my student, that it is harder to cast at the same distance anyway.
His question wasn't addressed at how to do it (he knows what to train already) but at why is it from the casting mechanics standpoint that on grass, even anchored, a roll cast is harder.

I have my own view on this but am interested in knowing how other people address it.

Mike,
That demo involving bottles sounds interesting. I use another one with a couple of balls attached by a string.

[Aitor]

however, i'm thinking that your reply might have something to do with the line sliding back towards the caster after the casting stroke because we see this of course on grass/slick surfaces but also on water in slomo videos.

Yes, the difference on grass between anchored and unanchored is huge. But I am talking firmly anchored on grass.
So in your view it is the same that roll and an overhead?

[Marc Fauvet]

But I am talking firmly anchored on grass.
So in your view it is the same that roll and an overhead?

"but at why is it from the casting mechanics standpoint that on grass, even anchored, a roll cast is harder."

hi Aitor,
to attempt to answer your question, could you please explain what you mean by harder ?
harder to be as consistent ?
physically harder ?
or ?

cheers,
marc

[Aitor]

Physically harder.

Let's see it in a different way.
I attach two identical rods together, both rigged with identical lines:
Rod #1 has its line is straight behind me on the grass.
Rod #2 is in a roll cast configuration and has its fly anchored to the ground by means of a screwdriver that allows the fly to be timely released, as shown here:



I cast with the acceleration needed to just unroll the loop and leader of rod #1.
Does the loop of rod #2 straightens and puts the fly at the same distance or not?

Easy question, easy answer.

[Mike Barrio]

Would Rod #1 have the same length of line out as Rod #2 is actively using in the D Loop to load the rod? ..... rather than the same overall length of line out.

Cheers
Mike

[Aitor]

Mike,

Since what I want is to compare the difference between an overhead and a roll cast to the same distance both rods have the same overall line length.
Obviously the line in the D loop of rod #2 will be shorter than the line behind rod #1.

[Marc Fauvet]

"I cast with the acceleration needed to just unroll the loop and leader of rod #1.
Does the loop of rod #2 straightens and puts the fly at the same distance or not?"
ok thanks.
generally speaking, #1 is easier and for most casters will have more consistent, farther straight line configurations on the FC than #2.

on the other hand, i'm thinking a well-practiced caster will get the same result with #2.
to get this the caster will use the same amount of force but applied differently and use more forward drift, at least that's how i do it.

if you have a casting-joules machine to test this out i'd love to be the guinea pig !  
cheers,
marc

[Aitor]

Mark,

Both rods are cast simultaneously so we are making the same casting stroke for both. The caster is an expert using the energy needed to just straighten rod #1 line.
Will the result of both casts be the same? If not why?

This is asking for some experimentation.

[Marc Fauvet]

D'Oh ! i forgot the two-rods-attached part !!! 

we don't cast the same way for #1 or #2 (independently, one rod at a time) so, i'm pretty sure that if the caster does a stroke for #1, #2 will fall short.
if the caster does the stroke for #2, #1 will probably fall short from rebound at the end of the cast.

i wish i had two identical rods to try this. have fun and let us know when you have the video up 
marc

[Aitor]

It has taken half a day but at last we are on the same page.

Maybe the problem is that one of the rods is underloaded.

[Marc Fauvet]

half a day is a record ! 

as for the 'underloaded', i'd say that #2 is loosing potential line weight from the fly leg on the ground whereas, #1 has all its line on the ground. no legs.
cheers,
marc

[Lasse Karlsson]

It has taken half a day but at last we are on the same page.

Maybe the problem is that one of the rods is underloaded.

Hi Aitor

Underloaded? thought the big spring theory was exploded   

I'd go with the notion that in the OH cast, the majority of the line is accelerated in one direction, in the Roll, only a part of it is, and some of the energy will be wasted making the rest of the line move in the direction we intend. Since I'm crap in physics, I'm probably wrong, but I really like your explanations, so I'm looking forward to it   

[Aitor]

Hi Lasse,

No, you aren't wrong (or, at least, I see this issue in the same way). 

These things are difficult even for instructors, so what I use in my classes is a simile based in throwing a couple of balls. It seems to get the point across at first sight. Will try to shoot a meaningful video some day.

[Lasse Karlsson]

Hi Aitor

You could try it with two rods, one where the line is straight behind you and the other where the line is setup for a rollcast. That one works pretty well, it's no problem casting two rods at once  They don't even have to be identical 

Cheers
Lasse

[Will Shaw]

I'd go with the notion that in the OH cast, the majority of the line is accelerated in one direction, in the Roll, only a part of it is, and some of the energy will be wasted making the rest of the line move in the direction we intend.

I'm actually quite worried now because I was actually thinking the same as Lasse. Come to think of it I don't know who should be more worried, me or Lasse.

W.