[JRLA]

Hello, been lurking in the background for a while......this has has led to reading Bob Wyatts excellent book and also Oliver Edwards work.

I hoping to get some practical advice on improving my upstream spider techniques.  Spent all the season so far salmon fishing and working, so really looking to do some enjoyable trout fishing on the ADAA, SDAA and upper Don in the next three weeks.

I have been fishing them in the same manner as a conventional upstream dry fly and to be honest enjoyed some success, seems to take on an average a larger fish than say a Griffiths Gnat (which I probably use far too much).

However after reading some of the posts, it appears that I should be drifting them downstream of me as well to increase the likelihood of an induced take?  Therefore I should cast off the centre line.........but would this not increase drag, which Wyatt says is the number 1  problem (and hence does not agree with knotted leaders)?

I assume it should be single spider, a Stewarts for instance, on a completely degreased leader?    (I have been doing this)

In terms of bite indication, then I should lift into anything that looks slightly suspicous? (This is an area where I think i need to improve, I think I am too used to conventional dry fly)

Hope someone who is more skilled than I, can give a few practical spider tips.    (Also looking at Czech nymphing at Kemnay but I have never even tried it)

[Rob Brownfield]

I have had some success with the Czech Nymph at Kemney and Monymusk using conventional methods as well as up past Strathdon fishing it from the bank on the narrower stretches.

There are far better spider fishers than I on this site that I am sure can help but my 2 pence worth is that I have only ever fished spiders upstream, casting to "flatish" areas of water where I see dimpling trout. This was an extremely sucessful method on the upper Bervie and certain SDAA waters when I was a member.

I have tried casting at a 45 degree upstream angle and letting the flies swing past and below, but like you mention, you will always get drag, even if you mend the fly line, the point fly will always be pulled through faster than the other flies as it has further to travel in the same time. (oh, I used to use three spiders on a cast, tied directly to the leader, not on droppers. I think its called a Durham Leader).

Having said all that, it is worth reading this article on fishing spiders. Very informative.
http://northcountryangler.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/north-country-spiders-some-thoughts.html

[Jonathan Kerr]

nice article that,
cheers Rob! 

[JRLA]

Cheers Rob.  Will read though that blog today whilst pretending to do work.

Seem to vaguely remember watching Oliver Edwards talking about a conveyor method.........unfortunately cannot remember specifics, but I think he was fishing channels adjacent to him but without drag.

Sincerely hope the fish are rising more freely than they were 2 weeks ago!

Out of interest Rob - have you ever attempted to fish these methods in the ADAA Feugh mini-jungle?

[Sandy Nelson]

Hi JRLA  

I fish spiders in all sorts of ways, depending on what i am trying to achieve, mostly this is upstream in a pair as you would a single dry fly.
Although if i need to drift them downstream then i will do that too. It really depend on where i am standing, where i think i can reach successfully and where the trout are showing themselves or likely to be holding. I could not give you any precise way to do it, if it catches fish then it works

If you practice some of the river style casts like curves, reaches, puddles etc then you can introduce line to the water to help avoid drag. The Carl McNeil and Massimo Magliocco DVD's are a good source of how to do these along with many other useful techniques, if you cannot find good references online.
I think Olly Edwards technique is called the escalator, it is one of many he employs and is a good search technique, again it is just a casting style to help avoid the dreaded Drag.

Its worth learning a few different casts to add to your repetoire.

As for czech style nymphing this involves no casting, it is basically like freelining a worm but using a fly rod, very effective in the right bits of water, but you loose quite a few flies and its a lot of work searching like this, fun for an hour but not all day
Lots of interesting stuff online, probably one of the easier methods to experiment with, only tip i have, is start from the bank and work your way into the river only after you have explored everything within reach

Cheers

Sandy

[Rob Brownfield]

have you ever attempted to fish these methods in the ADAA Feugh mini-jungle?

Shhhhhhh!!..lol.

I have been fishing the Feugh for Trout using various methods, but no joy so far. I am still learning the ADAA section and have not seen a single fish move yet. Early days for the river though.

I will be Czech nymphing a particular bit as its perfect for the method...just not sure the trout are thinking the same!!

[Iain Goolager]

 I think spider fishing is what you make it yourself, they can be fished in such a way as to be taken as cripples, spinners, nymphs, wee fry even and I'm sure that lots of people on the forum have taken fish in all these guises. Understanding the theory behind the different methods will allow you to make adjustments 'on the fly' 'in the field' which as previously stated can change depending on what the fish are doing and the type of water that you are fishing.

My ideal spider type fishing would be two scraggily tied spiders fished on as long a leader as possible anywhere from directly upstream to 45 degrees up and across. This would be to targeted fish and I'd have little or no interest in 'fishing out' the cast (unless of course a fish showed downstream, when I would allow the cast to fish over him) and I'd prefer to fish anything from a ripple to fast water.
As soon as my flies were deemed to be safely past his taking zone I'd roll it back out again until he either took or got bored of seeing them. I'd try to keep the line and leader under as much control as possible without imparting any movement to the flies and obviously a longer rod might help lift, mend or steer the flyline.

Then there is my preferred method for nymph and spider, which would work equally well for spiders alone. This is where I fish 45 degrees upstream drifting to 45 degrees down stream. This is primarily a searching method and again I'd re-cast at the 45 degrees downstream point after giving the flies a bit of a deliberate lift just in case something was following or considering taking.

Then you can fish down and across, which is not to be dismissed out of hand, it may be the way that most people start fishing the river due to it's relative ease of use but if fished with mends and a loop of slack line between water surface and rod tip to allow fish to turn on the fly unhindered then it can be very successfull.

To sum it up I'd say that using any method that allows you to control the line while letting the spiders free drift to get the maximum effect of the soft hackle fibres is bound to catch fish.

As with any method you need to give it time I've heard of a many people giving up on fishing upstream spiders because the returns were not instant.

Also the point that Sandy made about the method suiting the situation is very important, as it is when fishing any other method.

Czech nymphing? done it, caught on it, not my thing on the Don.

Best of luck

Iain

[JRLA]

Thanks Iain / Sandy / Rob.   Very knowledgeable, informative and quick replies 

So.....I will start with two scraggly spiders (Stewarts and one other), fish upstream (ish), fish the features and focus on the elimination of drag (and of course rivercraft).  Then adjust accordingly to how the fish behave, for instance the escalator.  I will use a Scott S4 9ft5wt, perhaps be a little short but never mind.

Then if no action in the upper layers, put a Sawyers PTN / GRHE on the point and try again.

Having a lot of trouble sourcing Moorhen wings for Waterhen & Bloa, so is there an alternative spider pattern that would complement Stewarts black spider on the Don?

Having been a coarse fisherman as a kid and "graduating" I am reluctant to do anything that even comes close to worming....therefore don't think Czech nymphing is on the to-do-list this season.

Good luck on the Feugh Rob - god knows how many pairs of waders you will rip to shreds

Thanks

James

[Liam Stephen]

James 

Another couple of Spiders to try would be a Greenwells and a March Brown. Both of which can be found in the SBS fly tying, (Goolager ties a very nice march brown spider, give it a try).

Tight lines
Liam

[Sandy Nelson]

Thanks Iain / Sandy / Rob.   Very knowledgeable, informative and quick replies  

So.....I will start with two scraggly spiders (Stewarts and one other), fish upstream (ish), fish the features and focus on the elimination of drag (and of course rivercraft).  Then adjust accordingly to how the fish behave, for instance the escalator.  I will use a Scott S4 9ft5wt, perhaps be a little short but never mind.

Then if no action in the upper layers, put a Sawyers PTN / GRHE on the point and try again.

Having a lot of trouble sourcing Moorhen wings for Waterhen & Bloa, so is there an alternative spider pattern that would complement Stewarts black spider on the Don?

Having been a coarse fisherman as a kid and "graduating" I am reluctant to do anything that even comes close to worming....therefore don't think Czech nymphing is on the to-do-list this season.

Hi James

Sounds like a good plan I'd never go anywhere without a Waterhen Bloa from a 12 to a 20 i could just about fish all year with it, if i had the courage

Jackdaw makes a good substitute, Coot also but tend to be slightly larger feathers. The bloa body with a starling hackle is a great dark variant too
Equally a nice Dun coloured CDC feather makes a spider that sits in the surface film

If no one has locally, Somers/Bill Bain/Orvis Try Lathkill they might have http://www.lathkill.com/shop/index.php?categoryID=150


As for the S4, i use either a 9ft 4wt S4 or recently either an 8ft 5wt Cane rod or the new Epic prototype which is also an 8ft 5wt, so the length doesn't matter if you are comfortable with the rod.

Cheers

Sandy

[Rob Brownfield]

I got black bird and jackdaw scalps from Orvis. The black bird is, well, black...and the jack daw, a really nice dark grey with a "blue" blush, much like a waterhen.

As was preached by the late Jack Hargreaves, "the fish don't know you could not get the right materials, as long as it looks like what they are eating, just use it". I think he was right.

As already said, starling wings are a good source of small grey/brown feathers.

I also tie an olive spider with a couple of wraps of very soft hen hackle and a green thread body. Has worked well when small olives have been comng off.  Upping the shade of the olive gives me dark and light versions, although once wet, I am not sure if there really is a difference...just a confidence thing.

As for the rod being too short...just extend your arm out..sorted!! I use a 4 weigh 10 footer, but I used to use a 5 weight 9 footer years ago.

[JRLA]

Thanks for the information again.

Loads of CDC, Starling, Snipe and Woodcock in the cupboard.  So I will improvise something resembling Greenwells and March Browns using Pearsalls threads.

I have the 9ft S4, two 9ft S4S's (useful for holidays and SWFF) and an Orvis 1oz 7ft 3wt.  Have been thinking about maybe replacing the Orvis with a small 3wt Scott rod - is there anything that is highly recommended?  I love all the Scott rods I currently have and the Orvis is nice as well.

[Liam Stephen]

James 

The Scott G2 have a good following among the light line guys. They are stunning looking rods, I wonder how they feel in the hand. Sandy had one for sale a little while back, not sure if its still available. 

Liam

[Sandy Nelson]

James

a Snipe Bloa is a cracking wee fly too , especially if you use the outer feathers and the Waterhen Bloa style body

Nice short rods, the G2 is nice and probably very similar to the 1oz i think it is size sensitive though and certain models are very sweet, research is difficult as few people stock them in the uk to try, if you are after the same kind of rod, then the new superfines are really very nice . And you can try them at Banchory.

I can't find a need for a rod shorter than 8ft any more, so i have none. I will use 8ft of Cane or glass on any small stream in the future.

Sandy

[JRLA]

Thanks....will look at the Snipe Bloa as well.

Probably need to be sensible, keep the 7ft for the Cowie, Carron, Upper Bervie and Burns.  9ft 5wt for the Don.  Not really sure where I would use an 8ft to be honest.  Maybe if I moved out past Alford then I would need one (tried and failed with the girlfriend on that score).

3000$ for a Scott Cane rod 

Will have a look in Banchory though next time.

Cheers 

[JRLA]

Well, after all the insightful help and tips, I thought it would be polite to show how I got on during my three weeks leave:

Spent a fair bit of time practising on the ADAA waters, mainly trying to fish upstream Spiders.  Due to lack of time for fly tying, I was using Partridge and Orange, Partridge and Green & Stewarts Spiders.  Probably had 5 trips of 6 hours from 1000 to 1600.

Caught plenty small trout, but only 1 good fish of a 1.5lb, all released of course. (cannot get picture to upload) Rest were less than 1/3lb.  

I have sussed out upstream bite detection providing I do not cast more than, say, 15ft of fly line.  Anymore than that I start to strugle to pick up the 'dart' of the line.
Been fishing relatively fast water and avoiding slow deep water

Q1 - Is the deliberate avoidance of deep slow water an incorrect assumption? Spiders look like they should be fished in broken and fast water
Q2 - Would you suggest this approx 25ft range limitation is too small / close for larger fish? This is kind of related to Q1, if the water is not fast and broken, then it must be very difficult to wade so close to a larger fish

This is my first season with the club, first sustained attempt at spider fishing and I think it has been an encouraging start.  Bloody exhasting though!!! 

Cheers!

James

[Rob Brownfield]

I am certainly no expert on this, but I was fishing spiders on a slow stretch last weekend. I would say the water was around 5-7 feet deep and no boils etc. As the water was "calmer" I could lengthen my cast and allow a bigger "sweep" of the flies. This resulted in 5 or 6 bonus fish and the biggest of the evening (although still only a pound or so). and still see/feel takes.

Reading between the lines of some of the articles on Spider fishing, i get the impression that if you see a lot of flies coming off, but few trout rising, then spiders can be the answer on "flater" water as the trout are probably taking the nymphs sub surface.

Certainly worked for me that night. But like everything in fishing, I bet I could go back in identical conditions and not catch a thing!

[Allan Liddle]

Often it's a case of presenting an easy meal at a depth suited to the fish not having to move very far in water that's not had much in the way of rod pressure, i.e. covering fish others haven't. 

[Noglaks]

I have a Sharpes 9ft 6wt which fishes5 and sometimes 4 DTs for nearly all my dry/nymph fishing. I bought it to replace my 8ft Fosters of Ashbourne 'The Arrow', and though I still use the Foster rod a lot, the Sharpes 9ft is much more versatile and will easily fish a 7WF with a sinking head on a small river near me for grilse. Excellent service from Sharpes as well as it being a local company.
DH.