[Rob Brownfield]

In my first incarnation as a Salmon angler back in the mid 80's I used to tie all my Salmon flies on Doubles or low water salmon "irons". I had a few 4 inch brass tubes for big water, but hated using them.

As I enter my "re-incarnation" as a Salmon angler once more I have started to look at salmon flies in a different light. I have been tying up lots of big fish shaped flies for the Pike, often very similer looking to Rapala lures, that age old Salmon bait.

What is to stop me tying these Pike flies up on appropriate tubes, using materials like EP fibre and single hooks and fishing them instead of a Rapala when conditions suit?

A 11cm Rapale replaced with a 11cm EP 3D baitfish could easily be cast with a 14-15 footer and fast sink line to fish the lies.

Am I onto something or am I barking up the wrong tree?

[Sandy Nelson]

Nice idea, can't see why not, although i'd be thinking 3" devons for sizes.
Not sure whether Rapala's work because of the action and noise or because they look like fish.
But devons work and they just spin round, maybe noise again???? but most people fish them downstream the same way you would fish a fly, Hmmmmmm................... got me thinking too now.

Only problem i can see is rapalas and devons have a hook at the end, might be tricky with an EP baitfish

Sandy

[Ben Dixon]

Am I onto something or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Hi Rob,

Maybe not but, I've been round many houses with salmon flies and I now use 3 Cu tubes, 2 Sunrays, Red Francis, Cascade variant and a Silver Stoat, that's it for a season.  I know all of these work in the right conditions so I am not blaming the fly if I am not catching and there are fish in a pool. 

I Carry 1 of the tubes in every size from 3/4" to 2", the second in 1 1/4" to 2".  Conditions dictate when I fish the Cu tubes, water clarity determines which of the two patterns I tie on water temp & speed of flow determines size.  Third is a subtle tube for fast clear water that only really sees use when fishing necks of pools in summer.
I carry cascades in #7 - #15, Silver Stoats in #9 - #15 and on plastic micro tubes.  Francis in #7-#15 and on 3/4" - 1 3/4" tubes and the Sunrays are on 3/4" - 1.25" Al tubes, one pattern brash & bright, the other dull & plain.  I also have a few dries but catch next to bugger all on them so don't really count them!!

Don't get too bogged down with flies, worry more about speed of swing and depth and forget imitating Rapalas Rob, next you'll be telling me you're going to tie the line to the end of the rod and not use a reel.

Ben

[Rob Brownfield]

Only problem i can see is rapalas and devons have a hook at the end, might be tricky with an EP baitfish

Already thought of that one I will do a step by step hopefully this weekend. I already have EPs with hooks at the back for Pike. I can think of a few Pike flies if scaled down would make great, mobile, salmon flies...And visa versa.

Ben,
All my Salmon fishing has been done from the pages of Ogelsbys writings so very old school thinking. He thought nothing of fishing a big Rapala down the edge when the water was raging through or indeed a smaller one in a spate during the summer.

Just thinking along the lines of presenting something more "fish like". I could never understand the relationship between fly size and water temperature for example. There are plenty of Salmon caught down on the Wye, and such like by Pikers using large lures or wobbled deadbaits in the summer, so why would a large (but with small barbless hook) fly not work up here. We are told Salmon grab the fly as a warning to an encroacher, surely something bigger would envoke a full blown attack?

As for tying line to the end of the rod, Tenkara is the way forward! 2000 years of use cannot be wrong

[Ben Dixon]

Yup, sort of agree with some of that.  There is always going to be the odd salmon caught by using tactics and flies not considered conventional for the conditions, these are exceptions in my experience.  There is thinking outside of the box and there is doing something that is unlikely to catch, I'd only try the latter as a last resort if nothing else had worked.  In general Colder the water, the bigger the fly Rob.

Take summer fishing, warm, low, clear water.  I'd fish small & high then small & deeper then bigger and high then bigger & deeper.  Then I'd go for fast, deep & stripped probably followed very quicky by conventional tactics.  Bigger & deeper is unlikely, in the above conditions to get a response but may "wake up" fish that will take something more conventional for the conditions.

Oglesby is old school but so is Falkus, neither are wrong about very much IMO.

Cheers

Ben

[Hamish Young]

There is thinking outside of the box and there is doing something that is unlikely to catch, I'd only try the latter as a last resort if nothing else had worked. 

I think that's the essential truth. We all like to do something a 'wee bit different' and I'm all for it, you only have to look at the number of 'prototypes' in my fly boxes to know that I fully subscribe to that methodology.
However, much as though I'm keen to see what you come up with Rob, what Ben said earlier about worrying more about speed of swing and depth is the key for me and certainly something Oglesby describes in his book(s).

Nothing wrong with a bit of experimentation, we all do it and it's where innovation comes from....
But if you do go down the route you've described, be interesting to see what you come up with to make the pattern 'move' in the water. That's going to be the 'toughie' if you wish to mimic a spinning lure.
Mind you, I have some ideas based on some of Frodins turbo disks, Moser snap-heads and 'fly lips' which we should discuss at some point. However, that's as much with big browns in mind as it is for salmon.

H 

[Rob Brownfield]

Ben,
I used to do exactly what you are saying. Infact, I loved "greased line" fishing in the summer  with flies tied on Wilson low water hooks. So delicate and subtle.

However, look at the traditional Dee flies. I had some Akroyds that were a good 7 inches long. I had a Yellow Eagle that looked more like a Pike fly than a salmon fly. The Spey was the same, everything was 3 inches+, even in summer.

I had access to the record book of Drum from the 1920-1940 (ish). All the flies were big, mostly traditional, but many were Dee flies.

These worked in the past, and well. Have Dee anglers followed fashion and come away from big flys? Are they using flies for the sake of it? I wonder if its like everything else, the best fly is a "so and so" because everyone uses a "so and so" and therefore all the fish caught are on a "so and so"?

Just a thought to promote discussion.

[Rob Brownfield]

Hamish,
I will try and get the flies up soon They will move no problems. The fact that they are so light means that the current will move them. I subscribe to the thoughts that if you want a fly to get down deep, then use a fast sink line and a light fly that will hover and move around, above bottom rather than using a heavy fly (brass tube) that sinks like a brick and has no life to it.

I am away to tie up some Sculpins for trout based on the principle...again, I will do a SBS for them so others can try.

I fully agree that speed and depth are the most important, can't get away from that, but as stated above, fashion dictates we use smaller salmon flies...but salmon are still caught on the Tay with large, pig ugly Kynochs when fly fishermen are fishing 2 inch tubes off the bank at the same time.

Me thinks some experimentation is on the cards, should make the process of cast, step, cast, step a bit more interesting

[Ben Dixon]

Not disregarding what you are saying Rob and yes, fly sizes have undoubtedly come down in size.  With the advent of tubes, it is possible to reduce possible leverage when fishing big hence no need to fish 4/0 hooks dressed to whatever length.  I would not fish with a hook of that size, as I've not seen one I'm happy with in terms of fish damage or potential to loose fish when compared to tubes.  I think the move to tubes from big singles is progress.

Big things were "the fashion" back then, things have come down in size and smaller may be the fashion now, could in part be down to changing conditions and weather patterns / water conditions?  With the choice of materials we have now, it is possible to create an illusion of life on a smaller scale, materials that maybe were not available when big was the norm.  Some big materials do not lend themselves to being tied small.

In terms of spinning, I have done it, don't like it and personally believe that it is possible, with the right line set up and right weight of fly, to fish a fly slower than a spinner inbut I will openly admit that spinning is not, and probably will never be my thing.  A brass tube will have life if properly dressed, my bucktail tubes look alive in the right flow, there has to be enough flow to swim it.  On the Kynoch thing, particularly on big deep rivers like the Tay, there are areas that do not fish well with fly.  Unless you are fishing there regularly, I'd not worry too much about it.  The Don & the Dee have very good fly water for most of their lengths.

Knowing your style Rob, if the norm was to fish with big flies today, you'd automatically want to fish small flies 

Cheers

Ben

[Rob Brownfield]

Knowing your style Rob, if the norm was to fish with big flies today, you'd automatically want to fish small flies 

That is indeed a fair observation! That comes from my carp fishing...do something different and you will sometimes catch more

What I was getting at with the Kynoch is that the fly angler, on the same day, in the same conditions, will choose a smallish fly, because that is what salmon "doctrine" dictates, but, the spin fisher or troller will use a large lure to catch. So, why would a large fly, dressed to look like a lure, not also catch?

I can think of a pool on the Dee I used to fish that has very little flow and is very deep. When I used to fish it the shrimp/prawn was first choice, worm second, rapala third, fly last.  These days a modern very fast sink shooting head cast across with a 4-6 inch tube fly dressed to look like a fish could be easily fished back at the right speed and depth, almost pulling a lure for trout style.

I most certainly do not think modern salmon anglers are doing things "wrong", more that modern salmon anglers are following a particular path and perhaps that path could be deviated from.

As for large hooks...bingo...I have stopped dressing pike flies on large hooks and am now going down the tube/small, small detached hook route. It is most certainly better for the fish.

[Ben Dixon]

That is indeed a fair observation! That comes from my carp fishing...do something different and you will sometimes catch more

Silly me, I thought you just liked being difficult 

What I was getting at with the Kynoch is that the fly angler, on the same day, in the same conditions, will choose a smallish fly, because that is what salmon "doctrine" dictates, but, the spin fisher or troller will use a large lure to catch. So, why would a large fly, dressed to look like a lure, not also catch?

Is the fly angler likely to be fishing at the same depth as the spin fisherman / troller?  I'd reckon that on a river like the Tay, the answer would be probably not.  If going deep, really deep I'd probably go bigger too, think about how Pollock tend to lie up / swim, where are the biggest ones?  Makes sense to me really.

Cheers

Ben

[Rob Brownfield]

Is the fly angler likely to be fishing at the same depth as the spin fisherman / troller?  I'd reckon that on a river like the Tay, the answer would be probably not.  If going deep, really deep I'd probably go bigger too, think about how Pollock tend to lie up / swim, where are the biggest ones?  Makes sense to me really.

Fair comment, but I would say that Pollock (and Pike for that matter) are predators. They lay deep because thats a good ambush point. I also believe that a large shilouette above a predator will cause a response (its worth eating that because its a moutfull) whilst a smaller "lure" would be ignored.

Salmon are not there feeding, they are there to spawn and defend there redds. Again, a large "threat" entering their lie will be treated with a "snap" and a warning bite. Something with more of a threat, ie, bigger and closer, might, just might invoke more of a reaction.

Somewhere on YouTube, and I can't find it just now, there is some very interesting footage of Atlantic Salmon laying in a pool. There are minnows and small fish swimming around nearby, often laying out the flow behind the Salmon. On several occassions something bigger swims into its view and it leaves the lie to chase it away, then drops back to where it was, followed by the smaller fish. One Brown Trout, I guess of about 6oz pops into view and the Salmon grabs it, holds it for perhaps 2-3 seconds and then lets it go.

If that were a 6oz sized fly, would that have been a take?

Needless to say, I am tying up "normal" salmon flies, because they work, but I think I will try a few "different" flies out of interest on the more fly unfriendly water. WHo knows what might happen, could be fun...might even start to hook proped fish like Pike..lol

[Ben Dixon]

Hi Rob,

Point I was making is that the bigger pollock tend to lie deeper than the smaller fish.  Also, IMO the deeper we fish, the less visible the fly therefore the bigger it should be (to a point).

Be interesting to see how you get on (before you get kicked off for being odd) 

Cheers

Ben

[Rob Brownfield]

Be interesting to see how you get on (before you get kicked off for being odd) 

Might not even get out the car park...lol...

I would come back with a better answer but a programme about "extreme fat admiration" has come on and I like the odd porker,...lol

Mmmmmmm...feeeeeeeders!!

[Ben Dixon]

Might not even get out the car park...lol...

I would come back with a better answer but a programme about "extreme fat admiration" has come on and I like the odd porker,...lol

Mmmmmmm...feeeeeeeders!!