[Euan Innes]

As I sit here sipping my martini (proper James Bond Vesper not the bottled muck) I'm mulling over a conversation that I had with the venerable Mr Dixon this afternoon about the original tying of that famous pattern, the Loch Ordie.
According to my 1988 paperback version of John Roberts "new illustrated dictionary of trout flies" the Loch Ordie was tied by W.S Sinclair of Orkney at someone's request and the pattern is as follows

Starting at the bend work forward with the following hackles - black, very dark red/brown, dark red/brown, medium red, honey dun, ginger and finished off with the famous white hackle at the head.

Never having ever seen a honey dun cape and never having the money for every colour of red/brown I used to tie them black, dark red, light red, white and it caught fish. The entry the the dictionary is from Stan Headley (he wrote the Bible you know) so might just be horse pucky but I do recall that this was how the pattern was tied.

I think the pattern changed when flies became mass produced in foreign parts and the price of a fly with seven hackle would not be viable so the pattern was changed to what we know now.

Does anyone else recall it tied this way? Any other anecdotes or fibs?

(Of course it's all pointless now that the gold version is in my fly box but I do like the history of loch trout flies)

 

Next up the claret bumble...

[Graham Ritchie]

Thats a more recent variation of the original fly. The original Loch Ordie was a dapping fly, usually tied on a single salmon hook, often with one or two flying trebles. The body of the fly consisted of a number of red-brown cock hackles palmered up the hook and it was finished with a white cock hackle at the head.

[Ben Dixon]

Thats a more recent variation of the original fly. The original Loch Ordie was a dapping fly, usually tied on a single salmon hook, often with one or two flying trebles. The body of the fly consisted of a number of red-brown cock hackles palmered up the hook and it was finished with a white cock hackle at the head.

Exactly what I wanted to hear, I concur! 

Ben

[Euan Innes]

Thats a more recent variation of the original fly. The original Loch Ordie was a dapping fly, usually tied on a single salmon hook, often with one or two flying trebles. The body of the fly consisted of a number of red-brown cock hackles palmered up the hook and it was finished with a white cock hackle at the head.

Yes they were dapping flies but they were tied in tandem, not single hooks.
So does anyone know why J Yorston of Orkney asked his local tackle dealer to tie the Loch Ordie in such a way, with the black hackle at the back? And why, if you Google Loch Ordie in images, a lot of them have the black?

Just really curious now 

 

[Ben Dixon]

Hamish told me the proper one has a gold fritz body and no black in it  ??? 

[Euan Innes]

And exactly WTF would he know? 
Comes on here spouting knowledge and thinks he can get away with anything.
Honestly, I mean, what did we do before gold? What did the Romans do for our Loch Ordies?

 

[Ben Dixon]

O.K, so it is one of H's "prototypes" that uses gold fritz but, as per our discussion today, I am fairly sure that the original had only white & brown hackle.

The claret bumble original dressing would interest me as I've seen many "original" recipes for this one.  I'll shoot Magnus a mail, he can get very anal about these things and is bound to know.

Cheers

Ben

[Euan Innes]

From the book, A man may fish.


Claret Bumble
Tail. Four strands of G.P. tippet
Body. Medium claret seal's fur (R.H.S. Indian Lake 826/3), ribbed oval gold
Body hackles. Cock dyed medium claret, and natural black cock
Shoulder hackle. Blue jay.


Again I think that this is a pattern that has suffered from cost cutting. I've not seen any in a shop that have both body hackles, usually just the claret.
Have any other patterns changed due to the need for cheap flies?

Ben,
I look forward to Magnus's thoughts on the Ordie.

 

[Ben Dixon]

Re the bumble Euan, I've tied them with black in there too but, much prefer the look of the fly with just the claret hackle and it certainly catches me enough fish to be happy with it.  Woudn't entertain the pattern without Jay on the front, can keep bumbles tied with Guinea Fowl etc. 

Cheers

Ben

[Hamish Young]

Interesting topic.
For me there's something in everyone's interpretation of the original pattern so far in this thread.

The Loch Ordie is generally agreed to have derived from a dapping fly, I'm with Graham as all I've seen from old collections have been on big singles with flying doubles or trebles - although I have tied them as tandems in the past as well. I have seen many versions over the years and heard many tales about how it should be tied. However, to throw an additional idea into the melting pot, have a good look at the American pattern the bi-visible (specifically the brown bi-visible) and then at the contemporary Loch Ordie then tell me the difference

As far as the Bumbles go, Magnus will almost certainly remind anyone that there should be 7 turns of oval gold tinsel in the dressing - no more, no less (something like that anyway). I'll be interested to see what he has to say about the Loch Ordie and even more intrigued by his view on my interpretation of a classic with 'unusual' materials in the dressing 

When it comes to the Romans.....
"... apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us "

H 

[Ben Dixon]

As far as the Bumbles go, Magnus will almost certainly remind anyone that there should be 7 turns of oval gold tinsel in the dressing - no more, no less (something like that anyway). I'll be interested to see what he has to say about the Loch Ordie and even more intrigued by his view on my interpretation of a classic with 'unusual' materials in the dressing 

Unless the fly is tied on a long shank or huge hook then 7 turns is too much IMO, 7 turns on a #12 B170 would be nothing other than rib  ???

Ben

[Hamish Young]

Unless the fly is tied on a long shank or huge hook then 7 turns is too much IMO, 7 turns on a #12 B170 would be nothing other than rib  ???

Yes, but I seriously doubt if size 12's were in mind when they were first tied chap

H

[Euan Innes]

Yes, but I seriously doubt if size 12's were in mind when they were first tied chap

H

Indeed. I think Messers Moore, Young and Innes are cut from the same cloth.
"Looks like a size eight wave to me chap..." is something that you will hear in a boat if me and H are about.
I think southern reservoirs are responsible for the size reduction, thus confirming that southern things are smaller...

Waiting for Magnus to throw in his tuppence.

 

[Sandy Nelson]

"Looks like a size eight wave to me chap..." is something that you will hear in a boat if me and H are about.

you should get him to sit down when he casts 
or is that because he IS sitting down ?? 

[Euan Innes]

you should get him to sit down when he casts 
or is that because he IS sitting down ?? 

I am reminded of a quote from Star Wars.

"Watch your mouth kid, or you'll find yourself floating home"

 

 

[Ben Dixon]

Yes, but I seriously doubt if size 12's were in mind when they were first tied chap

H

This must refer only to a certain hook size though. Forget the size of the fly for a minute, surely the implication cannot be that the same number of turns of rib are used on any size of pattern?  This is more the point I was trying to make rather than 7 turns being too much for a #12 B170.

Cheers

Ben

[Euan Innes]

Surely it would also depend on how many turns of body hackle were made as well.
Locking in the palmered hackle is the point of the rib and if it's a "skinny" fly then there will be less rib used.
To be honest I can't recall Kingsmill Moore ever talking about the number of turns,or size of wire,  just the rib being oval gold. And I agree that it should be oval (although it depends on what I have in my kit at the time!) in order to show through the claret dubbing and the double hackle.
Oh, and +1 on the Blue Jay. It might be a pita to tie in but nothing beats a BJ 

Which brings us back to flies being built at a cost and being tied incorrectly. A good reason to tie your own but are we not seeing the old patterns becoming wrong and that "wrong" being the norm. I love a variation in flies, the new and improved Loch Ordie being a great example, but I do like to see "classics" tied properly. By properly, I mean the right ingredients and not how many turns of rib 

I'm also not adverse to "inventing" a fly or two, but I taught myself to tie the classics properly before I got inventive.

Ben,
As for the black and claret together, it probably doesn't really matter. But hold one of each up to the light and I think that the double hackled one has a different "aura", if that's the right word, and bulges the water better.

Once again that could just be shite...

 

[Loxiafan]

A good reason to tie your own but are we not seeing the old patterns becoming wrong and that "wrong" being the norm. I love a variation in flies, the new and improved Loch Ordie being a great example, but I do like to see "classics" tied properly. By properly, I mean the right ingredients and not how many turns of rib 

Like the dreaded "Partridge and Orange/Orange Partridge"  ? 

I too think tradition in fly fishing (and fly tying) is great, really interesting, a heritage even, but I also think it is quite cool that we can vary traditional patterns to reflect modern materials or even available materials. Case in point, I often use Coot for Waterhen Bloa and it doesn't seem to make much difference, though I admit Moorhen does have more useful shades. Also I read a Paul Proctor article where he tied a Black Pennell with Black Ice Dub body with Red Holo ribbing and it looked absolutely Killer ! Will be trying a few of those....at least he didn't give it a 'new' name !

Lindsay

[Magnus Angus]

As far as the Bumbles go, Magnus will almost certainly remind anyone that there should be 7 turns of oval gold tinsel in the dressing - no more, no less (something like that anyway).

No Hamish, he won't. Tradition says an odd number of turns. The number of turns depends on the length of the body or body section and the size, ie width, of the material.

So,

..surely the implication cannot be that the same number of turns of rib are used on any size of pattern?  This is more the point I was trying to make rather than 7 turns being too much for a #12 B170.

Yes! - mostly. Chances are we would use different tinsel sizes depending on hook size and 7 turns on a trout #12 would be too much for me. I'd probably use a wider tinsel for an #8 than for a #14 - but might use fewer turns (3) on a wee fly. I tend to stick to 5 turns on traditional trout patterns and styles when hooks are #14 and larger.

[Hamish Young]

No Hamish, he won't. Tradition says an odd number of turns. The number of turns depends on the length of the body or body section and the size, ie width, of the material.

Well, I did say almost certainly I just recall being mildly berated by a certain Magnus Angus at Scone once a long long time ago for there not being 7 turns of gold wire (as I hate oval gold tinsel... that's another story) in a claret bumble I'd just tied.... as you can tell, it's sort of stuck with me ever since.

Nice to see you posting on the forum again Magnus

H 

[Euan Innes]

I seem to recall that day, although due to the previous night, things are a bit fuzzy 
I also seem to recall that I was as miffed as you, and also recall that "f**k off" was used 

I can see that filling my flybox for the coming year won't be as easy as I hoped, if it's being judged 
As an aside I put an order in to a couple of gamekeepers that I know tonight for some Blue Jay. Catch and release only works in fishing!