[Loxiafan]

Hi Everyone,

I had been pondering which shade of 6A is the historically correct one for NC patterns that specify "Orange" or 6A. At the moment there are 3 Orange shades available:




On the far left is 6A Pearsall's (that many modern tyers use as 6A for Partridge and Orange, Brown Owl etc).

Second left is Langley "Antique 6A" as sold by Phil Holding at Flytying Boutique.

Second Right is Langley "Antique 6B" again produced and sold by Phil. Not an Orange shade but used a lot.

Far Right is Pearsall's "19 Hot Orange".

I Posted a thread here:

http://www.flyforums.co.uk/fly-tying-forum/202596-pearsalls-orange-6a-one-again.html

It makes interesting reading given the varied responses, and my suspicions that the "Antique 6A" is the correct shade (matching Edmonds and Lee and Pritt) are confirmed by Phil Holding at the end.

Hope this helps anyone else who may have pondered this, not that it probably matters to the fish, but what with traditions and all that ! The thread turning a mahogany colour when wet seems to be the important factor that I have picked up from my scant researches.

Cheers,

Lindsay

[Sieger Devries]

Hi Lindsay,

I didn't go that far into the colors yet and mostly use the Pearsalls colors till now.... Got 2 books on the subject (now...  ) and they use the Pearsalls a lot...

So for the Partridge and Orange I use the first on the left Pearsalls 6a.... It's a little pale perhaps, but in the water it darkens..

(Don't really think the fish notice that much difference though, since all P&O in any orange color will be taken... )

[Sandy Nelson]

Lindsay

My 6a looks different to the one you have posted, mine is a soft orange colour and goes a lovely shade when wet.

My question on your photo's? the one on the left is down as "old" is it not supposed to be"gold" ?
I think the Gold is 6 not 6a however it depends whose list you look at .

Not sure where i picked up my pearsalls silk, i've had it for a good while but when the shipping arrives i can post a photo to show you the difference.

Sandy

[Sandy Nelson]

To wander off topic what about hooks for spiders?

I've been contemplating this one for years. I like the wide gape and light weight of the Partridge SLD and TNC103BL
However my only thoughts have always been that the way you fish a spider and the way you would ideally want it presented so it tumbles nicely in the current it really needs a straight eye, as the down eye or up eye hooks will present the fly differently to what you anticipate. The original flies have straight or even gut eyes so perhaps it is something to think about

Finally though it seems i'm not the only one considering this as partridge have now issued a Classic Spider hook, with alarge gape, short shank, fine wire and a straight eye Cool! Just a pity it still has a barb on it

http://www.partridge-of-redditch.co.uk/products/classic-spider/74/

Have to get some and give it a go

Sandy

[Sieger Devries]

As far as I know 6a= 'Gold'..... 6 and 6b aren't made anymore and are hard to come by... Got another (newer) example card of recent colors...

[Sandy Nelson]

Sieger

You are correct, my bad , 6a is Gold and 6 is Amber, its a spool of 6 that i have and use for Partridge and Orange (as well as 19 ), etc. Amazing the difference a simple little "a" is  

I use thread to match the hatch for whatever effect i want, you also have to consider the hook finish as when it is wet and the silk goes translucent the hook does affect the hue as does the type of fur (used right the silk negates the need for dyed furs ), all good fun.

Sandy

[Sieger Devries]

Thanks for posting the hooks Sandy... didn't know this one... (got a shop where I can get them???)

Until now I use the Fulling Mill 31510 Short Shank Special and if the description tells to use a longer shank I'll take way ever I have....
In the North Country Flies book I can't find much on hooks, but I see the writer uses the down-eyed ones...

At one of the UK-stores I stumbled upon these...


They have a straight eye, but I think the gap is a little narrower than the Partridge one... In the darker days to come I will ty mine one these hooks....

[Loxiafan]

So for the Partridge and Orange I use the first on the left Pearsalls 6a.... It's a little pale perhaps, but in the water it darkens..

That is what most peops use I think but it is not correct shade for P+O (re Edmonds and Lee) - for that "Antique 6a" is the correct colour apparently.

Cheers,

Lindsay

[Loxiafan]

To wander off topic what about hooks for spiders?

Finally though it seems i'm not the only one considering this as partridge have now issued a Classic Spider hook, with alarge gape, short shank, fine wire and a straight eye Cool! Just a pity it still has a barb on it

http://www.partridge-of-redditch.co.uk/products/classic-spider/74/

I use Mustad R50's in 14 and 16. They are really strong, have a micro barb (which flattens easily). I got some of the Partridge Classic Spider hooks - they look good, slightly shorter in the shank than R50's but....they are finer wire which might be a prob for Don Trout ???


I also tried Dohiku 302's (?) and these are good but black !

Cheers,

Lindsay

[Mike Barrio]

I like the Dohikus

Cheers
Mike

[Sieger Devries]

That is what most peops use I think but it is not correct shade for P+O (re Edmonds and Lee) - for that "Antique 6a" is the correct colour apparently.

Cheers,

Lindsay

  T.E. Pritt is just talking about.... "Orange Silk" in his book on North Country Flies from 1886..

I came to this colors because it's in the description from Mike Harding's book ... but I honestly don't know what would be the "right" shade... The one that catches fish...   ???

[Mike Barrio]

"The one that catches fish"

Cheers
Mike

[Loxiafan]

T.E. Pritt is just talking about.... "Orange Silk" in his book on North Country Flies from 1886..

I came to this colors because it's in the description from Mike Harding's book ... but I honestly don't know what would be the "right" shade... The one that catches fish...   ???

True, but if you look at the illustrations in Pritt's book the flies are tied with quite an obvious Orange silk closer to Antique 6A or Hot Orange than 6A Gold !

It is all confusing !

LC

[Sieger Devries]

True, but if you look at the illustrations in Pritt's book the flies are tied with quite an obvious Orange silk closer to 6A or Hot Orange than 6A Gold !

It is all confusing !

LC

Only got the pdf-version so I really couldn't tell and I take your word on it...

And confusing it is... with my Waterhen Bloa it's almost the same... One book talks about Pearsalls no. 3 (primrose) and the other one about Yellow no. 4...

So I'm with Sandy in this... coming from the "poor mans file" I'll take what's available and follow the book that on the table.. if possible...

If I wouldn't, how could I ty a fly with Chadwick's 477 in the description.... or Pearsalls 6b ... (got some bobbins...  )...

Just wonder who did describe the 'original' description anyway and based on what... ??? ... Think color identification then was even harder as it's now.....

As an example I took your photo of your Waterhen... I think your camera is slightly off with the whitebalance (artificial light gives a warmer color-tone)... I took the liberty and took it through Aperture and got an other color impression...

Think this isn't that different from the problems with color in the earlier days... A bit more or less water in your paint and your on or off the right shade...  

Yours:


My version:


A long nights ahead to think it over...

[Ben Dixon]

6a, gold, is the "correct" colour. My spools are the same colour as that depicted in the colour chart above.  #4 is the colour originally used for WHB's, this has been difficult to obtain for a while but I have a few spools tucked away    #5 seems to work absolutely fine for the same pattern although when fishing such flies that have stood the test of time for so long I like to use the original recipe.

Antique gold, #31 un-waxed with a hare thorax & speckled hen partridge hackle is also a lethal pattern.  Something I knocked up myself but I'm sure someone else probably got there many years before me.

Cheers

Ben

[Loxiafan]

Only got the pdf-version so I really couldn't tell and I take your word on it...

And confusing it is... with my Waterhen Bloa it's almost the same... One book talks about Pearsalls no. 3 (primrose) and the other one about Yellow no. 4...

It is hard to see the colours in the Pritt, but in Nemes book the colour for P+O, Brown Owl, Needles etc is a dark Orange eg. not 6A Gold as depicted above in the first post (far left) but closer to probably 19 Hot Orange. Eds and Lee's chart the 'modern' 6A Gold (again far left above) is nothing like the 6A they show (and recommend for aforementioned flies) but is like "Antique 6A" above. I think Phil Holding and the guy that dyes the threads at Langley (who also dyed for Pearsalls btw !) found some really old spools and used light Spectrophotometry to calibrate and produce the authentic old shades in modern manufacture. It seems in time the original Antique 6A shade watered down to the Gold 6A that Pearsall's still sell. You can get original 6B shade thread from Phil too btw.

One thing we haven't discussed is how the old (really old) thread is actually much thicker than the modern stuff - you can see this in some of Mike Harding's piccies. Apologies, I am a bit of a history geek ! 

Lindsay

[Sieger Devries]

One thing we haven't discussed is how the old (really old) thread is actually much thicker than the modern stuff - you can see this in some of Mike Harding's piccies. Apologies, I am a bit of a history geek !  

Lindsay

I noticed a difference in thickness too now you mention it... I just thought he did a few turns more, but could be the thread...

I'm not that deep into the history of things, but I like to know where thing are coming from... Got no energy to read all the books etc. available and lean on people like you... so thanks for the lessons....   ( )

[Sandy Nelson]

Syl was a yank and may have used different silks
I've had a few interesting conversations with him over the years, he will be much missed :z19.

The dyeing info is very interesting though, amazing what we fly fishers will do just to fool a few fish.
Nostalgia plays a big part in what makes a lot of us tick, isn't it great

Is the the thicker stuff not just Naples as opposed to Gossamer though? i know both were used to whip rod rings, depended on how thick the blank was and its intended purpose.

Sandy

[Loxiafan]

From Pritt (1885) ala Nemes Book (no image manipulation on my part):


Orange Partridge:



Winter Brown:



Yellow Partridge:




I'll have to do the swatch from Eds and Lee later as I think my pic is too big.

If you compare these shades to those spools I posted, the light 6A (marked "old" and furthest left) doesn't really match these shades (though might if heavily waxed ?). To me Pritts flies are painted Orange not light Orange or Gold. I understand that Pritt painted them himself (?), and if so possibly from flies he had in front of him. Whethers the printers got it right who know ! The Yellow on the Yellow Partridge is a deadringer for shade No.4 too imho.

Lindsay

[Sieger Devries]

Think you're right Lindsay... This is a real orange and doesn't look like 6a to me...

Just a question... are these pics from a PDF-file or did you take them yourself ?

Here's a 'copy' from my pdf... you see why I can identify the colors...

[Loxiafan]

Have tried uploading the Eds and Lee swatch but am getting an error - file too big. Have resized and still no joy.

This follows Eds and Lee:

http://www.flytyingboutique.com/store/Details.asp?ProdID=140&category=9

It seems the 6A shade became lighter (than in Eds and Lees' day) and has become 'accepted' as the correct shade, but actually isn't the 'orange' of Pritt or Eds and Lee (it seems, and is closer to shade 5 if anything). For P+O and winter Brown etc this you need Antique 6A or maybe just 6.

Now go tell a pro Yorkshire fly tier that and see how quickly he takes your head off !

Lindsay

[Sieger Devries]

Now go tell a pro Yorkshire fly tier that and see how quickly he takes your head off !

 

[Loxiafan]

Just a question... are these pics from a PDF-file or did you take them yourself ?

Hi Sieger,

These pics were scanned from Nemes book "The Soft Hackled Fly Addict" - I have no idea how (or if) they manipulated the images. They look like pretty much straight photographs to me, and it would have been film in those days. Guess I would have to get an original copy of Pritt but don't think the bank manager will oblige....that sort of transaction might put up the GDP for United Kingdom in a heartbeat the way things are ! 

I'll tell you who will know: Oliver Edwards and Malcolm Greenhalgh.

There was a muted 'silence' on UK fly from other pro tiers of the Yorkshire trad - and who seem to use the lighter 6A for Orange. Maybe they just can't bring themselves to buy some from Phil who is of course a competitor.

Better than watching the telly this !

Lindsay

[Loxiafan]

Nostalgia plays a big part in what makes a lot of us tick, isn't it great

Is the the thicker stuff not just Naples as opposed to Gossamer though? i know both were used to whip rod rings, depended on how thick the blank was and its intended purpose.

Hi Sandy,

Aye, I think the historical perspective is really interesting and 'tradition' is so often used with spider style that it may be important (to some). On the other hand techniques and equipment evolve and this too is a tradition of sorts.

Some of the Gossamer threads in Hardings book look really quite 'ropey' to me, much more substancial than the threads I have - the kind you would have to unravel to get a nice small head.

Cheers,

Lindsay

[Loxiafan]

6a, gold, is the "correct" colour. My spools are the same colour as that depicted in the colour chart above.

I bought a few spools of the lighter 6A from you guys on Monday Ben. I'm no so sure it is the historic shade, but I quite like it nonetheless, probably more effective in peaty/slightly coloured water.

Phil Holding says that if you wax the lighter Gold 6A it darkens up quite like the "Antique 6A" shade.

Cheers,

Lindsay