Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Sieger Devries

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #25 on: 02/11/2011 at 22:13 »
Lindsay I had an other look at the picture on the Boutique site and to be honest I think these pictures are too bright and they did overdo it with the saturation in the processing (the 4, 6a and 7 look far too bright...)....

But that's the difficulty with colors on computers... Any screen or branch does it's own thing... (I know this from my photography.... Pics on my screen may look good and on another's dirty or greyish...  :z6 )

In this tread on the flyforums... the shades a more subtle.... But I have seen some 5 or 6 cards now and no 1 color seem the same...  Think we have to find an 1765 P&O to be sure....  :z4

http://www.flyforums.co.uk/fly-tying-forum/60531-classics-orange-partridge-2.html


Sieger Devries

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #26 on: 02/11/2011 at 22:17 »
Phil Holding says that if you wax the lighter Gold 6A it darkens up quite like the "Antique 6A" shade.
Cheers,
Lindsay

It does Lindsay, but take the hard wax like the Veniard wax... Not the Cobblers wax... will give a greenish shade to it...

Loxiafan

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #27 on: 02/11/2011 at 22:27 »
Lindsay I had an other look at the picture on the Boutique site and to be honest I think these pictures are too bright and they did overdo it with the saturation in the processing (the 4, 6a and 7 look far too bright...)....

In this tread on the flyforums... the shades a more subtle.... But I have seen some 5 or 6 cards now and no 1 color seem the same...  Think we have to find an 1765 P&O to be sure....  :z4

http://www.flyforums.co.uk/fly-tying-forum/60531-classics-orange-partridge-2.html

Yes, the swatches on Phils site are bright, but to be fair they are pretty accurate. In the link you give there is photos of the three shades of "6". The one in the middle is the Gold (new) 6A but notice how much darker the one on the far left is and this is 6A (ala Antique). I don't even think the 6A Gold matches the left hand swatch on that forum thread.

It is pretty subjective and could get a bit "Spinal Tap" if we're not careful eg "How Orange is Orange" !

You should be tying your to match the Dutch National Team shirt anyway !  :wink

Lindsay

Sieger Devries

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #28 on: 02/11/2011 at 22:35 »
It is pretty subjective and could get a bit "Spinal Tap" if we're not careful eg "How Orange is Orange" !

Think you're right, let's leave it here...  :z4 Though it's rather nice during the Champions league games...  :wink

You should be tying your to match the Dutch National Team shirt anyway !  :wink
Lindsay

This would definitely be "Hot" Orange....  :grin

Loxiafan

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #29 on: 02/11/2011 at 22:58 »
It all comes down to whether we think the Pearsall's swatch in Edmonds and Lee is accurate - I think it is. Assuming it is then the 'modern' Perasall's Gold 6A (far left in my pic) actually matches shade 5 in their book ! It is quite hard to see the colour of the flies, but then of course they do actually specify the shades in their recipe:

Partridge and Orange uses "orange silk 6A" - this matches Phils Antique 6A ( and possibly should be referred to as this to avoid confusion ?). This will see you historically correct ala 1916 - 100 years, not bad !

Cheers,

Lindsay

Mike Barrio

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #30 on: 03/11/2011 at 00:00 »
Here is Lindsay's Edmonds & Lee swatch image.


Sieger Devries

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #31 on: 03/11/2011 at 00:24 »
Thanks Mike, Will have a look tomorrow in daylight (and without the influence of wine...  :wink )


Mike Barrio

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #32 on: 03/11/2011 at 00:35 »
Enjoy the wine! :z16

Best wishes
Mike

Ben Dixon

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #33 on: 03/11/2011 at 01:00 »
Thanks Mike,

SOme of those look very different to other colours I have.

My #3 is very much paler than depicted and my #8 is very much darker in tone, infact, most look rather different.  I think we'll have a hard job trying to compare silk to old images.  Not that sure it matters but very interesting.

CHeers

Ben

Loxiafan

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #34 on: 03/11/2011 at 01:18 »
Thanks for putting up the swatch Mike as it makes it easier to see what I am talking about (maybe ? !).

The image is quite a bit smaller in the book and if anything the colours are more 'intense' than on my monitor. I would say the shades Phil Holding is producing/selling very closely (if not exactly) match these swatches - remember the number for the shade is above the colour on the plate (confused me initially).

I mentioned Ollie Edwards. I have his Czech Nymphing DVD and as an extra he does a bit on NC Spiders and tying. For his Partridge and Orange he specifies "Pearsalls Orange, shade 6A" and in the booklet his example is very orange ala Antique 6A or 19 Hot Orange - his will no doubt be old thread rather than this new stuff Phil sells. Not definitive evidence, but nevertheless there are few with a greater eye for detail, and historical reference, than Oliver Edwards ! Ollie also holds Edmonds and Lee up as "gospel"......

Cheers,

Lindsay

Peter McCallum

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #35 on: 03/11/2011 at 11:54 »
I have a number of pearsalls bobbins, some old some from Ben's source. Question. Does it make any difference to the trout? I know it does to us, but to the trout? :z6

Ah'll get ma coat  :z2 :z2  :wink

Loxiafan

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #36 on: 03/11/2011 at 12:23 »
I have a number of pearsalls bobbins, some old some from Ben's source. Question. Does it make any difference to the trout? I know it does to us, but to the trout? :z6

It does seem an exercise in pedanatry all of this I know, but when many references mention "the right" 6A turns a nice 'mahogany shade' when wet, replicating the body colour of particular nymphs and spinners, then maybe it does - Gold 6A doesn't turn mahogany for me, in fact looks quite yellowy ! That said, can fish really see colours ??  ???

Ollie didn't give a video for his Partridge and Orange but on his fantastic Wet Fly DVD he ties a March Brown spider ala Edmonds and Lee - he takes the recipe directly from a dusty old copy on his bench. The Recipe (8b) calls for "orange pearsalls 6A". The thread Ollie is using is defintely a darker Orange hue ala Antique 6A or Hot Orange - it is not the yellowy 6A. It won't matter much in this pattern as only head really shows, but for an Partridge and Orange, Brown Owl etc it may make a difference....or maybe not !


Lindsay

Loxiafan

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #37 on: 03/11/2011 at 13:02 »
Just for reference to this thread, this is what Phil Holding replied with on flyforums (I'm sure he won't mind me citing it):

Hello Lindsay,

Sorry I'm late! ... my two pence worth ...

I think you have the colours marked correctly on your first post - the spool on the left is the "modern" 6A from Pearsalls - as the years have gone by, the original dyes were watered down and no one at Pearsall's bothered to keep an acurate note of the dye mix so the colour became paler and paler.

The "antique 6A" was reproduced by John & Carol at langley Threads following both myself and Louie Noble providing samples of 6A that were at least 35 years old.

The Antique 6A initially looks even brighter than No 19 but Hot Orange changes a lot more when wet - it goes "hot" compared with 6A which takes on a mahogany look, expecially if you have waxed the thread before tying.

As you rightly say, Edmonds & Lee indicated tying an Orange Partridge using the shade 6A - so the antique 6A is the closest thread to use if you wish to keep to the traditional recipe.

Why not tie some with antique and some with modern 6A, fish with both and see which the fish prefer on the day?

Kind regards
__________________
Phil Holding
www.flytyingboutique.com
Airedale, North Yorkshire

Peter McCallum

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #38 on: 03/11/2011 at 14:26 »

Why not tie some with antique and some with modern 6A, fish with both and see which the fish prefer on the day?


Now that sounds like a sensible suggestion! :z13

Loxiafan

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #39 on: 03/11/2011 at 14:42 »
Now that sounds like a sensible suggestion! :z13

Aye, but that would be a 'Partridge and Orange' and (almost) a 'Partridge and Yellow'  ! :wink

Lindsay

Loxiafan

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #40 on: 03/11/2011 at 14:47 »
....much more constructive comments and 'banter' on this forum though !  :grin Maybe, cos we are all, or most of us, 'local' (not in League of Gentlemen way though) ! ?

Lindsay

Peter McCallum

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #41 on: 03/11/2011 at 19:02 »
Maybe, cos we are all, or most of us, 'local' (not in League of Gentlemen way though) ! ?


But we are all 'locals'  :z4 :z4 :wink

Sandy Nelson

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #42 on: 03/11/2011 at 20:11 »
Aye, but that would be a 'Partridge and Orange' and (almost) a 'Partridge and Yellow'  ! :wink

Lindsay

Perhaps, might depend on the feather :wink



Raided my box i brought home with me, theres a 4,6 and 19, some brown, some grey.

heres one pearsalls didn't do :z4



Sandy

Sieger Devries

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #43 on: 03/11/2011 at 21:23 »
Had a quick look in my 'Spider-box'.... I saw 5 shades of orange (to my surprise.. :grin )

6, 6a, 6a antique (i guess), 6b and 19... There very little difference between the 6 a ant. and 19 Hot Orange...

I had another look at the first pic from Lindsay and I think the colors don't match the real colors on the bobbin... the 6a Gold is far too yellow in the pic..

Looking at the E&L swatch the 'new' 6a did wash down during time and the '6a antique' or '19 Hot Orange' come closer... Think the antique could be the real thing....

Waahhhh almost wish I was colorblind.... :wink

Just a stupid question... Are there different manufacturers of the PS-silk??? Can't imagine one producing two shades with 1 name ...

Richard Tong

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #44 on: 03/11/2011 at 22:25 »
Oliver used/uses Pearsalls more towards the 19 shade. He has always used this and likes the chestnutty colour it goers when wet. He wrote an article in April 2001 in FF & FT and we all got into Spiders even more down here when it appeared and all went round obscure fishing shops hunting down original Pearsalls Gossamer. In fact I recall getting a load of Ash colour(very rare) from a fishing shop which was in Banchory at the time, though I'm pretty sure it wasn't Orvis but may have well been in the same location.

A guy I know went so far as to visit the Pearsalls factory and speak to someone in the know about colours, availability, changes etc. He got us colour swatches which I still have to this day. I seem to remember that he said in fact that the 6a now is the same as the 6a back in the days of Edmonds & Lee. Even when Ol was told this he still continues to use the 19 as he has used it all his puff, it's always done well for him and he saw no reason for changing a winning formula. I think he has quite a few spools of the orange shade that he favours! After our scouring of shops for original rare Gossamer spools (I have loads that I managed to get even 10 years ago)he came round one day when he and Hazel were shopping at Stephen Smiths Garden Centre in nearby Otley and went through all my Hot Orange spools and marked on them the ones that he thought were the best shade. He must have been here for 90 mins...and all that time Hazel sat in the car. Even when I asked him a couple of times if she would like to come in for a cup of tea he replied "our lass is fine in t' car"....priceless!!

By the way he fishes a lot more with dries now than he used to! He had his PB from Gallogate in April this year on a dry and it weighed 3lb 8oz. Not big for a Don trout but a belter for us here in Yorkshire.

As an aside this season on Don was the worst Spring we have experienced since we first fished it in 2001. Lets hope 2012 is better. Luckily other rivers compensated!

Richard

Loxiafan

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #45 on: 03/11/2011 at 22:41 »
... There very little difference between the 6 a ant. and 19 Hot Orange...

I had another look at the first pic from Lindsay and I think the colors don't match the real colors on the bobbin... the 6a Gold is far too yellow in the pic..
... Think the antique could be the real thing....

Just a stupid question... Are there different manufacturers of the PS-silk??? Can't imagine one producing two shades with 1 name ...

Hi Sieger,

My image was adjusted for white balance so the colurs pretty much match the real thing. Yes 6A matches E and Lee. Langley, who produce all these new "authentic" shades were dyers for pearsalls so it is "in house" so to speak.

Cheers,

Lindsay

Sieger Devries

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #46 on: 03/11/2011 at 23:00 »
Hi Sieger,

My image was adjusted for white balance so the colurs pretty much match the real thing. Yes 6A matches E and Lee. Langley, who produce all these new "authentic" shades were dyers for pearsalls so it is "in house" so to speak.

Cheers,

Lindsay

Thanks Lindsay... I'll stop nagging now...  :oops I can get carried away when it comes to colors, screens and calibration of them..  :z6...

Loxiafan

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #47 on: 03/11/2011 at 23:03 »
Oliver used/uses Pearsalls more towards the 19 shade. He has always used this and likes the chestnutty colour it...
A guy I know went so far as to visit the Pearsalls factory and speak to someone in the know about colours, availability, changes etc. He got us colour swatches which I still have to this day. I seem to remember that he said in fact that the 6a now is the same as the 6a back in the days of Edmonds & Lee.

Brilliant stuff Richard, thanks for that - 'horses mouth' and all that !  :z16 As far as I am concerned Hot Orange 19 is at least "Orange" ! I watched Ollies vid last night and could clearly see that he didn't use 6A Gold. Not sure 6A now (other than Antique 6A) is the same as 6A in Edmonds and Lee though as the two colours look very different - the orangey shades in Ed and Lee get progressively intense or darker too ?

I wonder if "Hot Orange 19", and not available in 1916, became a subsitute "Orange" ?

For what it's worth, my best "orange" spider this year on the Don was "Grouse and Orange" ...and it was tied with Hot Orange 19 !  :oops Don't know what it is but I much prefer Grouse hackle to Partridge  :z8

Cheers,

Lindsay

Loxiafan

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #48 on: 04/11/2011 at 14:09 »
Thanks Lindsay... I'll stop nagging now...  :oops I can get carried away when it comes to colors, screens and calibration of them..  :z6...

Naw keep nagging it keeps me on my toes  ! :wink I did calibrate on that one using the white on the spools as "white" - the thread colours are ever so slightly paler than in real life though, so you are correct in that - but that's photography ?

Lindsay

Sieger Devries

Re: Which Pearsall's 6A ?
« Reply #49 on: 04/11/2011 at 16:39 »
Naw keep nagging it keeps me on my toes  ! :wink I did calibrate on that one using the white on the spools as "white" - the thread colours are ever so slightly paler than in real life though, so you are correct in that - but that's photography ?

Lindsay

 :wink That why I use a 18% grey card in my photo's when it comes to be as close to the real thing as possible... (White always takes a little of the surrounding colors... 18% grey is absorbing the light and is neutral..)

If you put this card into your picture, you have the best calibration point for adjusting the whitebalance and processing the pics through programs like Photoshop, Lightroom or Aperture etc....
If you like to know how to, here's a link in English...

When I'm at home I will try to do a pic with my spools (woeaahh put the pressure on... :wink ) Can take a few days because I'm on holiday now...  :grin

 




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