[Derek 365]

Having read the indicator debate on 'Whats your favourite winter fly' thread and seeing it go off topic , i thought i'd open a new wound one to allow the other the stay on topic .

I am an indicator user there i said it  and although i only use buzzers on barbless/debarded hooks i'll happily take any abuse or banter on behalf of the hundreds of other silent masses which use the method in shame

Being a user for a few years i have first hand experience of the damage this method can do , on the positive catching lots of fish side and understand the negitives of foul-hooking and aggressive striking .

The latter issue of aggressive striking is more to do with the mechanic of the method , as when you're 'feeling/tip watching' the fish is usually already hooked and has reacted to this by bolting , your strike is just taking up the remaining slack line . With the indicator there's a lot more line to tighten up before you can set a hook .

As for lost indicators and snapped off leaders being a problem it's my experience that they almost always drift on the wind and i collect them when they reach the bankside , now a leader which gets broken while fishing without a indicator ends up on the lakebed and will remain there until it rots away , is that not something more worrying .

As for the bubble float/coarse angling compartion there's lots of more effective float patterns and have never see one used for coarse species .

If you really care for the artifically reared , alien fish species that we want introduced to manmade holes that much.......maybe you should stop fish .

Cheers and tightlines with a tinhat on , Derek .

[Iain Goolager]

Derek you BEAST!

Hi my names Iain and I'm an alcoholic indicator user. Its the bubble float/ milliners wig type indicators which I find offensive primarily because when I go fishing (man made water or not) I like the whole ambience which includes looking over the water and not feeling that I'm at the Carnies - roll up! roll up! throw out your bouy - a prize every cast.

we all know I'm a snob and I don't care, you don't crawl about this planet with as ugly as I am without developing a thick hyde.

Secondly it's the unnecessary type of lures hung off of them that grates too.


One final point regarding the snapping off of indicators - fine letting them drift to shore but hopefully the 'trace' is still not attached, either you still have the scenario where nylon and flies line the lakebed or even worse they are still fishing without you attached (the royal you that is).

Sedgehogs Derek, sedgehogs dear fellow

Iain

[Derek 365]

Nice one Iain  , i've in the last 6 months starting fishing NZ style but with a strip of foam whipped to hook shank instead of those 'fishpimp' ones (it's a start) but that was because the fish were taking the indicator .  I'll maybe knock up some of those 'purist indicators' you mentioned .

Cheers Derek , a beast on the turn .

[Jim Eddie]

Derek

First of all, well done for putting your views across and speaking on behalf of indicator users 

I dont use that method, I dont enjoy it and question if it is fly fishing , but as previouisly stated is its within the rules and its done as you describe I have no issues with that. Certainly I am not going to assume the high moral ground becuase I choose not to use a particular method.   

Again if fisheries, lochs or rivers decide to ban a method, thats also fine by me and I will adhere to that. However that does not necessarily mean the ban is correct, we would laugh at the Alexandra being banned if it were to happen today. Would you want to fish a river where the rules were upstream dry fly to rising fish only ?   

Also I stated that I did not think it was fly fishing, what gives me the right to lay down ground rules rearding whay constitutes Fly fishing ?
I have yet to see a definition that is universally accpeted.

I do not think its an aswerable question as to what the definition is, in my profession we have prescribed legal rules we are bound by , we also have Comapny procedures we must follow , despite this there are still gray areas. When I once asked an ethical question on this I was given a good answer, If it does not feel right then generally its not, this is what I apply to my fly fishing. Again refer to Jimminy Cricket, let your consience be your guide.

And for the people with no concience  they need to be policed   

As Derek alluded to can we pigoen hole ourselves as Traditionalists , Snobs or Purists and fish for Rainbows ?

 

Jim     
   

[Barry Robertson]

Once i saw your Avatar picture Derek i fully understood where you were coming from 
Everyone to there own i say but at least fish without a thingmabober etc and use a sedge hog or a big dry as like Iain says it makes it a bit more easier on the eye 
As for just sticking a bit of foam to a hook for an indicator that sounds a bit like oh desperado 

[Rob Brownfield]

Just where do you draw the line? I don't think you can to tell the truth. Ban indicators then you have to ban NZ style surely, as its an identical method, just different indicator.

I use a Klinkhammer as the "indicator" if fishing NZ style. It has a large orange and yellow wing and from a distance, looks like a small foam indicator. Should my method be banned? Its a fly, it contains nothing a standard Klink does not contain, I just change the colours so my old eyes can see it. Am I indicator fishing or NZ styling it?

Interestingly, what if I were to use an indicator that was black or brown. Would people object? I bet 90% of folk would not even realise or bat an eyelid. So maybe its not the method thats objectionable, but the colours???

As for "striking"..if the line is kept taught, you don't need a huge strike! If anything, the fish hook themselves. Maybe thats am issue?

[Barry Robertson]

As for "striking"..if the line is kept taught, you don't need a huge strike! If anything, the fish hook themselves. Maybe thats am issue?

A strike is a must, some hook themselves but the majority of fish are caught by striking into them when a slight movement is seen on the line.
If i had a pound for the amount of people i would stand and watch fish who dont strike and half the time dont even know they just had a bite is unbelievable 
The most of the fish i catch on buzzers straight lining are taken by not even feeling a bite, its all in the tip of your line IMHO, slightest twitch of the line and iam striking whether i miss it or not
If people could just watch there line more , indicators / N/z style would not be used to the same degree i thinks

[Rob Brownfield]

A strike is a must,

Interesting that you should say that as i found the total opposite, with just a gentle lift being the most I ever needed on a still water.

Perhaps its all those years of float fishing taught me a few things. 

I agree that many people seem to miss takes when using an indicator, which is what i was eluding too on the other thread. I blame the bubble float myself. When watching folk fishing "baits" under a bubble float, they always ignore all the bobbing about, waiting for the "titanic" to be pulled under. They seem to do the same with an indicator. To me, even the slightest dip, knock or dimple would see me lifting into a fish....or missing it! Thats come from a coarse fishing background for certain!

As for watching the tip of my line...my eyes are not good enough for that anymore, unless at close range. I used to use a cortland 444 nymph tip that had a 9 inch bright orange tip...worked wonders when driffted in a bow with the wind.

But the question remains..if i fished a black indicator, would any one say anything? 

[Barry Robertson]

I also think an indicator offers more resistance to a fish once it mouths say the buzzer where as a fly line offers less.
A fish has to pull these indicators under so people can see the takes, how many fish do you think mouth the fly and spit it cause it realises somethings not quite right and a lot of resistance behind the fly  ???
Just my thoughts 

[lostfly]

Yesterday I fished at Newton Farm near to Wormitt.
Steve the proprietor, gave us a warm welcome, heaps of advice and spent a couple of hours standing beside myself and fishing buddie passing on his expertise.
The weather was beautiful sunshine but extremely cold with a slight breeze and the fish were well down.
When I asked him the best method to fish in these conditions he had no hesitation in recommending the bung method.
Now personnally I have never tried this method and obviously don't own any bungs and Steve didn't have any spare. I did notice however that all the other anglers were using the bung with differing degrees of success (suppose it depends on the attached flies).
Steve did however give me a shot of his rig for fifteen minutes.
Now, as far as I'm aware I didn't get any bites and certainly no takes as the bung only drifted around on the surface. Did I enjoy this method of fly fishing? To be quite honest the jury is still out on this one. One part of me says not really, quite boring watching an orange fluro piece of polystyrene bobbing up and down. It also doesn't quite ring true to be the true sport of fly fishing even if it is only for stocked rainbows. On the other hand I can see the benefits of applying this method when the fish are a bit sluggish, and probing the fly rather than striking the fly.
Will I pursue the bung method? Again the jury is still out.
Newton Fram is an excellent fishery, the water is very clear and the fish are in tip top condition. I will certainly be going back in the not too distant future and would recommend anyone who hasn't yet fished there to give it a go.
 

[GARYBOY]

was fishing on sunday at a stillwater
chap there was using an indicator MY GOD every time  it so much as twitched you would have thought he was trying to set the hook on a shark or other large fish
he broke 3 hooks that i counted doing it  and blamed the hoooks !!!!!!!!
every one else there was talking about it, poor fish ,every one he hooked must have had the roof of its mouth pulled out
if that is FLY FISHING ,think i will sell rod etc and take up golf or something else 
 inicator and orange blob  no  thank you

[Ben Dixon]

I would never fish a lure under an indicator, just doesn't ever really enter my head to do so.  These big indicators must offer a lot of resistance and I agree with Bazs' theory that many more fish will be lost due to the resistance of the indicator.  Watching the line is certainly the best method for me and if the tip cannot be easily seen, I keep the rod tip up and watch the bow of line that forms between the rod tip & the water again, a lot of takes will be missed but I doubt whether it would be a greater percentage than would be missed using an indicator.  When fishing NZ style on a stillwater I am not usually using the dry as an indicator but as a method of controlling the depth of the fly.  Sometimes I find the fish are crusing and taking about 12 - 18" down and want the flies dead slow or almost static, fishing wets / nymphs below a dry allows slow fishing at the required depth.  In these situations I find a washingline set up most effective and for this I usually use a big DHE on the point, these go under quite easily when the droppers are hit but I still tend to use the end of the line for indication.  When fishing subsurface on either still or running water I usually use an orange line, really helps to see what is going on.

Is fishing with an indicator fly fishing?  In pratical terms an fish caught on a fly is a fly caught fish but hanging a lump of fritz under a thingymabollox for freshly stocked naive fish is pushing it, if only because it really detracts from the feeling of "catching" the fish and the angler fishing like this is missing out.

Cheers

Ben

[Jim Eddie]

was fishing on sunday at a stillwater
chap there was using an indicator MY GOD every time  it so much as twitched you would have thought he was trying to set the hook on a shark or other large fish
he broke 3 hooks that i counted doing it  and blamed the hoooks !!!!!!!!
every one else there was talking about it, poor fish ,every one he hooked must have had the roof of its mouth pulled out
if that is FLY FISHING ,think i will sell rod etc and take up golf or something else 
 inicator and orange blob  no  thank you

I think Peter summed it up well , "its the man not the method" or words to that effect. The guy described above is going to cause problems with whatvever method he is using 

 

Jim

[Noel Kelly]

I have some so I must have used one at some stage but I cant remember ever doing so. Must have been early one saturday (or Sunday) morning then

[Derek 365]

Fantastic comments from everyone  and i'll let this 'wound' heal with one final statement .

Whether you use a piece of foam , a klinkhammer with a fluoro wing post or your flyline tip or the section that hangs off your rod , we're all using indicators to detect bites everyone of us .

Tightlines Derek .

[Rob Brownfield]

Whether you use a piece of foam , a klinkhammer with a fluoro wing post or your flyline tip or the section that hangs off your rod , we're all using indicators to detect bites everyone of us .

Derek, I was going to try using a Delkim...what do you think? 

[Derek 365]