[Mike Barrio]

Hi folks

I've been playing today .....  

Tis always fun trying to work out what a piece of "blurb" actually means  and I've been noticing a fair bit about stretch and non stretch fly lines in the magazines and catalogues lately ...... curious I am

So I tried a couple ( or 5 ) and tied one end to a tree to see how much effort it takes to stretch them ..... and found I could tell the difference between a stretch and non stretch line when I pulled directly on the fly line with my arm/body, but I had to put a fair amount of effort in to it There is no way I could apply this amount of "pulling power" with a fly rod tip, not even an 8wt

So I would therefore be a tad doubtful about them having any affect on feeling takes, protecting tippets, improving strike rates etc etc ..... but as always ..... I could be wrong

I would suggest (IMVHO) that your fly rod plays a far more important role in these things .....

Any thoughts folks?
Best wishes
Mike

[j.r fartley]

i had noticed a few references to line stretch recently,surely feeling a take cant be a reason for non stretching lines ? i always find a new line needs a good stretch at first! 

[Jim Eddie]

Stretch has never been a factor in making a fly line choice , unless the thing sterched like an elastic band can't see it making much difference.

 

Jim

[Jonathan]

Lines are not meant to be stretched.
Let the fish do the stretching.

Jonathan

[Irvine Ross]

As you say Mike, a stretch line can't make any difference once you are playing the fish as the rod has a lot more flex. The only time it might help to protect the tippet is if you get a hard take when you are retrieving line with the rod down, especially if it's a fast retrieve. But then I can't remember that happening to me often.

Marketing hype I suspect.

Irvine

[Rob Brownfield]

Interesting what you say about "feeling takes" Mike...I have had this arguement regarding bite detection between braid (non stretch) and nylon when carp fishing...bare with me..it is relavent 

If you have 50 yards of braid and 50 yards of nylon laying on the ground and you tie a half ounce weight on the end of both, go to the other end and pull, then the weights will move at exactly the same time and for the same distance. Do the same with a 5 pound weight and the braid will move first and further as it had no stretch.

So, and here is the relavent bit...a trout gently plucking at a buzzer at 20 yards will still give the same pull at your fingers whether stretchy or non stretchy lines are being used as its a gently pluck. Maybe if a large fish smashes into your fly then a stretchy line is an advantage as it may cushion the hit..BUT..and its a big BUT, the drag of the water on a line thats being taken across the surface at a right angle will take away a lot of the cushion effect as the drag wil take up the slack.

Lastly, its often quoted that a non stretch line will cast further. I have my doubts. Here is my theory...if you take two catapults, rig one with elastic, one with string...which one will fire a stone further? With a stretchy fly line its the weight of the line itself that is causing the stretch on the back cast as you stop. The rod will still load fully and as it unloads on the forward stop, that fly line, that has stretched a little, will want to return to its former length..so it acts like the catapult elastic and fires the line forward.

But like you say Mike, the stretch on a 25 yard line probably has very little effect compared to a non stretch line...a 40 yard salmon line may be more noticable.

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Rob

From my experiments the other day, I don't think that there is any way that you could put enough weight/pull on the fly line when casting to stretch it, as the rod absorbs and stores the energy when it loads?

Cheers
Mike

[Hamish Young]

Interesting topic 

I can see advantages of low/non stretch in sinking lines (in particular) and whilst I suspect that a low/non stretch line could have an advantage for casting it would be minimal at best. A very small percentage in improvement with no real clear advantage over 'conventional' technology lines.
I suppose the only fair test would be to make up two fly lines of exactly the same profile and exactly the same weight cast them on the same rod and see which went further..... but even then the chances are that the next person to pick up the rod and cast both lines after each other might get a different result...... hmmmmm.
Lets' face it, if there were a huge advantage for distance then everyone but everyone going for distance competition casting would use one now wouldn't they As far as I'm aware they don't.
Do we look for low-stretch in sinking lines Well, I do as it happens. Trouble is I have a strong distaste for most products from a certain brand well known for being at the forefront of this 'technology', I tend to see most of their advertising material as quality bullshit of the highest order.
I remain to be convinced.

Hamish 

[Rob Brownfield]

Hi Rob

From my experiments the other day, I don't think that there is any way that you could put enough weight/pull on the fly line when casting to stretch it, as the rod absorbs and stores the energy when it loads?

Cheers
Mike

Mike,
The line will stretch as the load on the rod reaches maximum, and when you start the forward cast, it will stretch more (by theory) because it is travelling one way and the rod is trying to go the other BUT I agree that it probably not be any noticable amount....

[Rob Brownfield]

Lets' face it, if there were a huge advantage for distance then everyone but everyone going for distance competition casting would use one now wouldn't they As far as I'm aware they don't.

Maybe no one has thought about it enough??  

Simple experiment I have just done....

I have some pole elastic with me (dont ask)...and tied it to a pencil. I held the pencil upright and pulled the elastic back..just enough to put a little tension on it..and let go. This is as close as I can get to scaling down a fly line. Anyway, the pole elastic shot forward at high speed.

I did the same with some 50 pound nylon..similar diameter and no matter how much tension I put on it, it did not go any where near as fast.


Thinking about an easier experimet, if you had two lines,  tie the lines off one end, then stretch them out...then let go. I bet the stretchier line pings back further than the non strethcy one with the same amount of pull applied. I would state money on it infact....meaning greater line speed.

Back to Mikes point...if both lines where the same weight etc, the rod would never load more with one line or the other..so..a stretchy line, all be it only a little stretchy should "ping" forward faster with the same applied forward cast..and thus travel further due to line speed.

BUT..now I am thinking  ..arrrghhh...the "ping" of the line would occur at the moment in time when the rod unloads and releases the "pulling" part of the cast...so what is to stop the "elastic"  from unloading not only from the fly end but also the tip end..and thus actually killing the cast and removing line speed....

So..after all that thinking...it probably does mean a non stretch line should actually cast further as there is not force in the line pulling in opposing directions....

Geeez...I am going to stick to Thermal Dynamics of Umbilical coatings whilst under pressure and torsion forces...so much easier as there are formulas to work with..lol

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Rob

The pencil experiment can't really help with the question IMHO, as it doesn't flex like a fly rod does

I guess this is a bit like when you see folk grabbing tippet material with both hands and pulling it apart in a sharp and strong movement, the tippet breaks and is often said to be rubbish ..... yet it is not possible to put that type of pressure on the tippet when you pull it against a fly rod, so a fish cannot do this

I also have come to the conclusion that you can't stretch either type of line with a fly rod while casting, as the fly rod cannot create enough "pull" or weight to stretch the line

Try threading a line through a trout rod, get somebody to hold it up high as you would when playing a fish or casting, then you pull on the fly line ...... you'll be surprised how little "pull" you need to bend the rod over like it does when you have a large hard fighting fish on the end

Best wishes
Mike

[Rob Brownfield]

Try threading a line through a trout rod, get somebody to hold it up high as you would when playing a fish or casting, then you pull on the fly line ...... you'll be surprised how little "pull" you need to bend the rod over like it does when you have a large hard fighting fish on the end

Oh believe me, I have done this experiment several times I wanted to prove to a certain national Pike angling club that a fly rod is more than capable of landing big pike...and I showed that my 10 weight fly rod could apply more pressure than most "accepted" pike rods..but thats another story

The pencil was as close as I could get to a fly rod.....I thought it was an inspired experiment given that I was sat in my office at the time

I am pretty sure I have something with the stretchy line casting further..maybe it will only work with a 6oz weight I shall build a test rig at the weekend.. Certainly the carp boys have gone away from braid as a shock leader to nylon as it was felt the distances improved..need to do some casts in the garden

[Ben Dixon]

Really not sure how much if any practical difference a non stretch line would make although I do not think that an over stretchy flyline is a desirable thing.  I think if any of the companies whose lines I liked made a non stretch line then I would buy it preference to a less non stretch line.  In terms of casting, I believe the stiffness of the coating is more important.  I recently tried a low stretch line that was advertised as memory free & very supple, I could not argue with either of those claims but it was so supple that it sagged all over the place.
In terms of take detection, again, I think it makes little difference particularly with floating lines where takes tend to be visible although it may well be different with sinkers where subtle takes will not be seen, would I go and buy a line simply because it was non stretch?  Probably not but I dont think having a line that is low stretch is in any way a bad thing.

Cheers

Ben

[Hamish Young]

Thinks...... just as a matter of interest, I wonder how far we've come in terms of stretch and fly line manufacture

Just exactly how much stretch is there in a modern line when compared with an equivilant silk line..... and how does that silk line compare to low-stretch 'modern' fly lines
Hmmmmmmm.
Sounds like one for Magnus to reserach

Hamish 

[Rob Brownfield]

Weren't silk lines totally non stretch? I had one on an old salmon reel I bought..pretty sure that was like modern braid and has no stretch at all.

I believe the stretch in a modern line is dependent on the core. Add a non stretch core and you start to get problems with memory...strangely enough its a problem with umbilicals for the offshore industry...they get torsional and tensile differences in the central core (especially with steel tubing) and the plastic outer which cause them to twist and coil on themselves.

[Irvine Ross]

OK, I'm taking this to extremes, so shoot me down when you spot the flaws.

If you had a long enough length of a very elastic line, and assuming you could make the back cast somehow, it is possible you could complete the full forward cast and only have partly stretched the line so that the point of the line would not have started moving forward at all.

Once you had completed the forward cast, the tension on the line would be released but the biggest mass of the line would be behind you. At this juncture the elastic would contract and the main mass of the line would pull the loop backwards.

Therefore if you want to transfer the acceleration of the rod tip to the main mass of the line, which is 30' -60' behind you, you are better off with little or no stretch in the line.

So much for the theory. Bring on the tablets of stone Magnus  

Irvine

[Mike Barrio]

Lots of great replies folks

Best wishes
Mike

[Magnus Angus]

Yes silk is a non-stretch material.

There's no evidence that we can load and unload the line. Thing about a fly line its a very distributed weight - unlike a weight on the end of a braid. The maths is frightening but essentially I agree with Rob about the response to a low load and the damping effect of water.

When casting, despite what it feels like at the grip, we apply a relatively small force on the line - that force grows larger in the early part of the stoke but is still not frightfully big at it's maximum - it peaks just just after the moment when the rod is at maximum bend and is ridiculously small in the moments before the line overtakes the rod tip and forms the loop - when the force on the line falls to zero. The period from maximum bend to the rod coming straight is what casters call 'the stop', it's during that time as the rod straightens that we may benefit from a small amount of energy stored in the rod as Spring PE - the vast majority of the energy in the moving line comes from leverage applied directly to the line by the rod. (I suspect is you stretch a fly line and let it go the time it takes to 'recover' would mean it has no effect in casting - but the real point would be that when we cast there is no large weight on the fly end. The tension in the fly line is highest near the rod tip and drops to near zero at the fly end of the line when we're casting.)

Tournament casters are the guys who have really worked on this subject because they use some extremely heavy, relatively short shooting heads, so if any fly casters should see a difference they should - and they don't.

However - what we do know is fly lines are made of a strong core with a coating wrapped around. The coating provides the density (floating sinking etc) the core provides tensile strength. The core and coating are radically different materials so the composite can cause problems. For instance, if a coating is less elastic than the core and or is very difficult to bond to the coating then the core will in the worst cases break off in chunks in most it will eventually start to crack. Unsurprisingly, the company who started to make a fuss about fly line core and stretch use a coating which while great in some ways did not stick to the core very well - so they had problems with conventional core materials which have a certain amount of give.

On feeling takes - imho we usually see a take long before we feel anything. So called smash-takes are in my opinion evidence that we are tightening into a fish which has taken the fly has hooked itself and is already moving at speed before we feel anything - and they 'smash' because we either don't respond quickly enough or because the rod is pointing down the line we apply the greatest possible tug on the line. If the same happens when the rod is at an angle - no smash! That's why top class river anglers fish deep nymphs with a slightly raised rod and a curve in the line.

[Iain Goolager]

That's why top class river anglers fish deep nymphs with a slightly raised rod and a curve in the line.

Even some 'lower class' river anglers do this Magnus 

[Rob Brownfield]

Even some 'lower class' river anglers do this Magnus 

And even some "scum" class do to! ..but not often enough! 

[Mike Cleaves]

I have been using various non-stretch fly lines for the last 6 years on lakes and rivers. I have experimented by comparing standard stretchy fly lines with my homemade non-stretch fly lines and feel that I catch more fish with the non-stretch lines, whether it be full sinking, sink tip, or floating. Playing a fish with a non-stretch line on a lake seems to me that there is more feedback as to the direction the fish takes and the ability to turn sea trout on rivers when it heads back downstream is an advantage when the angler cannot follow due to obstacles. My homemade lines have absolutely no memory, a big advantage when fishing a 'static' dry fly or emerger on a lake when the surface drift is towards the angler. My lines are constructed from various UHMWPE floating braids with different diameters and lengths of sinking dacron.  In my opinion, take detection is much improved when fishing with a sink tip or sinking fly line. Proper scientific testing to validate my subjective experience can be really difficult to achieve, and probably impossible, but trends could be noticed leading to a fairly accurate conclusion.

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Mike - welcome to the forum 

Wow, that's an old topic to resurrect 

My thoughts remain much the same - and these things are probably mostly about personal confidence.

The point that Magnus made about the core and coating combination is the key.

Cheers
Mike

[Mike Cleaves]

My lines have no coating hence no memory or coiling. They absorb a certain amount of water which makes it harder to calculate the correct wet AFTM. This topic might be an old thread, however, I am only now seeing it. My lines would be difficult to mass-produce efficiently but they give me pleasure to use.  All the best!

[Mike Barrio]

Great stuff Mike, anything that gives you enjoyment is good, that's what fishing is all about 

It's also the beauty of a forum when compared with social media, you can actually find a 12 year old topic 

What are you doing with the braid, are you furling it? Sounds like fun.

Cheers
Mike

[Mike Cleaves]

As an example, the sink tip is constructed as follows. starting at the tip I have 3' of 1mm dia red & white dacron which is spliced to 8' of 1.3mm dacron which is spliced to 20' of floating red UHMWPE [Dyneema] which is then spliced to 0.8mm floating red dyneema running/shooting line. This is my 'go-to' line for nymphing on lakes. The wet weight of the head is 13.6gms which equates to an AFTM8. The free sinking rate of the dacron was approximately 6 seconds per foot before attachment to the floating belly. The tip is blobbed with a lighter flame to which is attached  20lbs bs clear mono with a 4 turn uni knot and looped to accommodate the leader. The only disadvantage of this setup is during the winter when my fingers get cold handling the wet line.