[Jim Eddie]

Topical at the moment , last winter on my commute the majority of cars that eneded up in the ditch were 4 x 4's (two fatalities) or Reanault Clio's with big exhausts.

This is an interesting link regarding the merits of Chelsea Tractors 

http://www.flyforums.co.uk/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.4x4abc.com%2Fjeep101%2Fsafe.html

 

Jim   

[Ben Dixon]

Not convinced by that Jim, sounds like it has a bit of slant, sort of thing I would expect to appear in the Guardian.

Can only speak about my truck but, if I overcook the power (or loose traction) whilst turning on snow or slush then it will spin and get unruly if in 2 (rear)wd.  In 4wd it will generally hold, this applies in the wet too.  Same amout of power being laid down by 4 wheels has to be better than it being laid down by two.  A lot depends upon the tyres fitted, there are more snow suitable tyres available for 4wd vehicles, higher profile tyres will give better grip on slippy stuff than low pro's but requires the vehicle owner to ustilise some ommon sense.  A Range Rover on 22" 30 profile tyres with an extreme road tread will be awful in the snow & ice probably as bad as a BMW 325 or something similar.  With the right tyres, I'd take the RR every time.

The implication that 4x4 drivers are often too quick in bad conditions, I agree with that.  If you loose control in something that weighs as much as my car then it is going so slide a long way due to the weight it carries.

Cheers

Ben

[John Reid]

I can vouch for that Ben.  I put bridgestone duelars on mine 3 weeks ago and what a difference it has made and has not struggled yet.  However I had a 50 yard sideways moment tonight on a backroad that was like a glacier and I was going too fast.   

[Iain Goolager]

 4 x 4 drivers should be made to sit in front of a mirror and discuss with themselves why they are so silly!


Wikipedia fact - 4 x 4 vehicles are unaffected by icy conditions

seen something today that beggars belief
 

[John Reid]

Do share Ian?

I was dodging along on Friday on the A90 abut 45 in the slow lane and the fast lane was pure white when a clown in an L200 wooshed past.  He must have been doing 70-80 mph. I don't think that motor will be straight for long!

[Iain Goolager]

Travelling to work this morning I got stuck in the traffic heading up the dueller between Northsound and the Wellington Road roundabout at Altens.
Some bloke sitting in a Chelsea Combine in the inside lane obviously gets bored & decides to indicate & creep over into the outside lane – ok me thinks nothing untoward there. He then attempts to drive over the central reservation and head off in the other direction........................the snow, ice and camber were unfavourable and he sat teeter tottering on the central reservation while wheelspinning – unfortunately this only lasted 30 seconds or so before he managed to break free but was long enough for me to have a great giggle & consider getting out of my car and offering him a sack to cover his obviously large but empty head.

Where are the rozzers when you need them!

The fact that I've loads of money automatically places me above the law and allows me to use the planet as my playground, kinob.

[Ben Dixon]

I can vouch for that Ben.  I put bridgestone duelars on mine 3 weeks ago and what a difference it has made and has not struggled yet.  However I had a 50 yard sideways moment tonight on a backroad that was like a glacier and I was going too fast.   

What you have on before?  Just replaced my Dunlop Grandtreks with some fairly cheap tyres, Dunlops were crap in all conditions even from new and are about £130 each.  Put GT Savero H/T's on mine, road biased but still very chunky, less than £300 fitted.  Really pays to do a bit of research when buying tyres, lesson well learned.  I would be looking for cheap on that thing you drive, they eat tyres!

Ben

[John Reid]

Ben - I had Michelin Diamaris on it before which were over £200 a piece (it came with them as i would not part with that many pennies).  They were great on road but absolutely rubbish off the tarmac.  I managed to get the new ones of ebay almost brand new for £100 a corner as the guy who bought them hated them because they were a bit noisier on the road.

If I had the choice I would go for Verdstiens but I am happy with the Bridgestones for the moment but I am thinking of getting a Nevara in the near future as i am going back to the tree surgery when I get back home and the X5 is a bit too nice for lugging arbo' gear around in.

Iain - The guy deserved a kick in the seeds!

[Ben Dixon]

Travelling to work this morning I stuck up the traffic heading up the dueller between Northsound and the Wellington Road roundabout at Altens. Dropped my bacon roll between the drivers seat and the centre console, took me a good 5 mins to dig it out by which time the traffic around me was getting pretty pissed.
Some bloke sitting in a 4wd who was unfortunately high enough up to see the problem in the inside lane, obviously gets bored & decides to indicate & creep over into the outside lane – ok me thinks nothing untoward there. He then attempts to drive over the mountain of cake boxes I had just thrown out of the window and head off in the other direction........................the pie boxes, custard and and half eaten big macs were unfavourable and he sat teeter tottering on the central reservation while wheelspinning, damn custard – fortunately this only lasted 30 seconds or so before he managed to break free but was long enough for me to finish my bacon roll & consider getting out of my car and offering him a pack of crisps to cover his obviously large but empty passenger footwell.

Where are the roadside burger vans when you need them!

More like it I suspect 

[Ben Dixon]

I am thinking of getting a Nevara in the near future as i am going back to the tree surgery when I get back home and the X5 is a bit too nice for lugging arbo' gear around in.

Get a Hliux mate, Navaras are gash, they break!!

[Matt Henderson]

More like it I suspect 

Is there somewhere to nominate post of the year? that has to be the winner. 

[Iain Goolager]

Bernard! you've obviously got too much time on your feet.

Nearly spilt my caramel and crunchie smoothie 

Horace

[Irvine Ross]

The article is right about some things and wrong about others. I've been driving 4WDs for my day job for over 30 years and I've seen a lot of them in the ditch. The 4WD is a definite advantage in snow both for starting and stopping. The first thing they teach you on off-road driving courses is to go down steep slippery hills in low gear with your feet off all the pedals. The 4WD system slows down all the wheels. To really keep your speed down you need a real 4WD with a low ratio gear box. If you try that in a normal front wheel drive car the back end is likely to overtake you on the way down.

If you drive too fast for the conditions in any vehicle you are asking for trouble.

On ice its a different story, it only helps at low speeds. If you start sliding on ice then the extra weight of the vehicle means you go further before you stop and if you hit a kerb sideways the momentum and the high centre of gravity means you are more likely to roll over than the average hatchback.

I run on BF Goodrich All Terrain T/S tyres all year round and the pair on the rear axle have done 45,000 miles and still going strong.

Irvine

[Hamish Young]

Part of my job requires me to teach off road/hazardous driving techniques in 4x4 vehicles to the volunteers that make up 'my' Coastguard teams, to be able to do that I had to go through an instructors course (oddly enough  ) so stuff like this interests me hugely.
One of the first things I teach/demonstrate when doing off-road stuff is how high range/low range differs in providing mechanical grip/mechanical braking 'advantage' on slopes. We then move on to different surface conditions with that knowledge hopefully instilled and build on technique from there. Not only is it an eye opener for many a 'newbie' it's damn good fun too 
However, the most important thing that is repeated again and again in any of these lessons is that a 4x4 is a tool to be used in the right way. It does not make you indistructable and 4x4s are subject to the laws of physics just like everything else on and off the road..... so hopefully 'my guys and gals' drive the vehicles in the right way for the conditions which it has to be said is more than most 'chelsea tractor' owners do. Fundamentally (as Irvine points out) if you drive too fast for the conditions you are asking for trouble and chances are if you drive too fast in a big 4x4 when you crash it will be a 'biggie'.

John - my 'fleet' of Coastguard response vehicles includes 3 Hiluxs, a Land Rover and a '57 plate Navara. Without question and even with uber chunky Cooper M&S tyres fitted the Navara is the quickest response vehicle in my patch and is very accomplished on road. Sadly, it is nowhere as good off road as a Hilux which in turn is nowhere near as good as the Land Rover. That doesn't mean the Navara is a bad vehicle - far from it - it's ability as a load carrier is impressive, it tows very well too and is far more relaxing to drive than any other 4x4 I've driven before including a variety of Range Rovers and BMW X5s.
So I would consider buying one..... don't let the resident 'Toyota Tart' put you off 

H 

[Rob Brownfield]

There is a well known formula used by offroaders to calculate the insidence of BMW X5s on there roofs at the first sign of snow

Fact is many people buy a 4x4 firstly because of the perceived pose value, secondly the perceived safety factor and lastly, for the winter.

Many of these 4x4's are fitted with high performance, low profile, fat road tyres that offer very little straight line grip in snow, let alone lateral grip. When braking, due to the weight of your average 4x4, they offer very little stopping power in slush and on hard packed snow. Drivers should be aware of this, but many havent a clue about tyres.

As some of you know I am a bit of an offroad enthusiast (I have stables to keep my landrovers in..lol) and currently am driving a Subaru Outback in an out of work because it behaves much better on hard packed snow than a Landrover does. Much better feedback, lower centre of gravity and fancy electronics keep me mostly on the straight and narrow

For really deep snow a Landy comes out

Over the years I have had to pull quite a few 4x4s out of ditches/off of slippy patches and without exception they were driven by people who turned around and said, "but its a 4x4, I expected it to be better in the snow than it is"....and without exception, they all had high performance road tyres fitted to fat alloys.

Round my way Subaru rules supreme..and for jolly good reason

[John Reid]

Coming from a farm I have plenty of off road experience and the trusty landrover is definitely the 'jewel in the crown' when it comes to off-road work and for towing capacity.

However, being squashed against the drivers door, having a rubbish heater and a small space to look through are not my idea of fun for everyday driving.

As I do around 40k miles a year I need something that isn't that bad on the fuel, is comfortable and delivers decent MPG and can tow a mini digger.  Thats why I have opted for the Navara.  It is a really comfortable car, performs reasonably well off road, has loads of power for towing and without a trailer is delivering 37mpg.

I keep preaching to folk about tyres and as they are the last thing between you and the road it is really important that they are up to the job.

Yes, I do drive an X5 however I know its limitations.  It is just a big car at the end of the day that has the luxury of 4wd. i bought it as it is a lovely machine to drive, tows like a train and handles superbly (and it does look the dogs danglies IMO).  :wink

[Kev Danby]

After tonights journey home as a passenger in a 4 X 4 it is perhaps the first time I have been passing bricks. we were not speeding 10 - 20 mph but the vehicle might as well had ice skates on. The vehicle an old disco and having read the comments on here i have no idea what tyres were on the vehicle. One thing struck me the owner just bought the vehicle I dont think they know how to drive it and the suspension seems to be on the rigid side. Never been so worried in a car. 

[Rob Brownfield]

After tonights journey home as a passenger in a 4 X 4 it is perhaps the first time I have been passing bricks. we were not speeding 10 - 20 mph but the vehicle might as well had ice skates on. The vehicle an old disco and having read the comments on here i have no idea what tyres were on the vehicle. One thing struck me the owner just bought the vehicle I dont think they know how to drive it and the suspension seems to be on the rigid side. Never been so worried in a car. 

I ran an old Disco for a few winters and you are right, the suspension and the high centre of gravity make them feel as if they are all over the place....which in most cases, they are..lol. Touch a ridge of ice and it will lurch sideways until it finds grip. The joys of mechanical 4x4. The new discos are fantastic in the snow thanks to clever electronics that continually shuffle grip around....and of course, proper tyres help. My disco ended up with Pirelli Scorpians and they gave pleanty of grip on hard packed snow.

[Peter McCallum]

One problem is that once someone has a 4x4 they think they are able to drive as per usual anywhere and in any conditions so they barrel along as if everything was normal. It's not!

You still need to drive sensibly and on ice a 4x4 is just a big, heavy car, unless you drive correctly and use the correct tyres. I have driven a disco - old one and a defender - really old one, both could go anywhere I wanted them to go in mud, snow, peat tracks but on ice they were no different to my kids Kia picanto, drive normally on ice you're F****d drive sensibly you'll get there. Not as fast as normal but you'll get there..... and maybe help,others on their way too

[Tam Greenock]

Think l might have a wee look at Subaru cars before l decide what to get, was looking at a CRV as l used to drive on for my job a few years ago.

[Jim Eddie]

Thanks guys some interesting responses. Never read the Gaurdian in my life Ben 

I've never driven a 4 x 4 in my life, but was considering buying one, i'm getting very risk averse in my old age  Judging by the responses it would not really help me. There is generally not a problem with deep snow and slush on the PHD- Abdn road its more Ice thats the problem so a 4 x 4 would not be the answer. I've not really had a problem so far this year with the Pug and 4 winter tyres.

 

Jim     

[Rob Brownfield]

Jedi,
I would seriously have a look at a Subaru/Skoda Octavia 4x4/Audi Quattro/Passat 4motion fitted with winter tyres. You get supreme reliability and comfort, better safety ratings, practicality, and a car that will handle snow and ice very well without breaking the bank on fuel/tax/insurance.

On a Subaru the Symetrical All Wheel Drive is more subtle than standard 4x4's and is quicker to kick in than a viscous system (most 4x4 SUV and "crossovers" use viscous systems) which are only fully 4x4 once the rear wheels start to slip. Since they have to slip before the viscous coupling can work, you have already lost traction!

Something like a Defender/older Disco relies on mechanical connections and thus is as subtle as a brick! Its always there but because it has shafts and props connecting to the transfer box, it cannot compensate for different grip on each wheel, unlike an electronic system...hence they can feel jittery on icey roads as grip is constantly changing between ice, wet, tarmac, slush, sry etc. The new Rangies and Discos are a different game though as they use electronics.

[Jim Eddie]

Jedi,
I would seriously have a look at a Subaru/Skoda Octavia 4x4/Audi Quattro/Passat 4motion fitted with winter tyres. You get supreme reliability and comfort, better safety ratings, practicality, and a car that will handle snow and ice very well without breaking the bank on fuel/tax/insurance.

On a Subaru the Symetrical All Wheel Drive is more subtle than standard 4x4's and is quicker to kick in than a viscous system (most 4x4 SUV and "crossovers" use viscous systems) which are only fully 4x4 once the rear wheels start to slip. Since they have to slip before the viscous coupling can work, you have already lost traction!

Something like a Defender/older Disco relies on mechanical connections and thus is as subtle as a brick! Its always there but because it has shafts and props connecting to the transfer box, it cannot compensate for different grip on each wheel, unlike an electronic system...hence they can feel jittery on icey roads as grip is constantly changing between ice, wet, tarmac, slush, sry etc. The new Rangies and Discos are a different game though as they use electronics.

Thanks Rob

 

Jim