[Ben Dixon]

I have a number of rods built with REC snakes that I need to have re-ringed, all rings on the upper section of the rods are grooved.  Is there anything out there that is almost as light that will last a bit longer?

Cheers

Ben

[Sandy Nelson]

I have a number of rods built with REC snakes that I need to have re-ringed, all rings on the upper section of the rods are grooved.  Is there anything out there that is almost as light that will last a bit longer?

Cheers

Ben

I have heard of a few people grooving recoils, I've never done it
However back on subject, for the top half of a rod (where it counts) when using Snakes i use thin wire stainless steel Hopkins and Holloway guides, they are basically the same weight as the Recoils, but are more easily bent and dont resume their original shape, which is where the recoils score. If you look after your rods properly this should never be an issue, and if one is damaged by accident its not hard to change one .
If they are single leg recoils, then i have special thin wire singles which we get made for the Barrio rods, again they are the same weight as the recoil but made of stainless steel.
I have never seen any of these damaged and we are up to 50+ rods using them now, perhaps people look after stuff that is made for them, a wee bit better

I do wonder though, if you can groove Nickel titanium alloy, then can you groove stainless steel.
The only other person, i've met who grooved recoils also had saw marks on the blank and had cut into some of the whippings, this guy fishes a lot and it's largely competition stuff. (He also has a bad habit of twisting his rod during casting). I replaced the rings with standard gauge single SS snakes, as with the 7wt rod the weight made little difference and the rod works just as well and hasn't worn yet.

The only other option is possibly to use Fuji Titanium single SIC's they are very light for lined guides but still heavier than a snake, might be an interesting compromise, but they are quite pricey

Sandy

[Rob Brownfield]

As Sandy says, the thin H&H snakes are difficult to groove. A thin coat of epoxy rather than a thicker coat would compensate for the fraction of a difference in weight compared to the Recoils.

If using lined I am with Steve Parton is saying you will never ever groove the Fuji alconites. Very light rings with a thin lined section. I have experimented with a couple of rods now and with a wet line, they do feel slicker on the cast. Dry casting on a field does not do them justice.

Actually..that MIGHT be the answer to your grooving..casting a dry line! A dry line is extremely abrasive when is starts to pick up dirt of the grass/sports hall floor. I would say that dry casting for teaching/demos actually means you are hauling perhaps 10 times the amount you do when fishing...

Maybe the cause..not sure??

[Ben Dixon]

I have always had reservations about recoils, I have not looked into the structure of NiTi but have a hard time understanding how something that is so maleable can have such a high surface hardness.  I do not know who makes the tip rings fitted to Helios rods but they are chromed and none show any signs of wear however, the top snakes appear quite grooved and the REC tip top fitted to my TCR was the first to go followed in sequence by the snakes 

I do clean my lines after grass casting and occasionally during a session if the ground is particulary mucky, I am a compulsive hauler, this along with grass casting will wear shit out but I could not, would not have a Helios ringed with lined snakes!! 
I will probably get my TCR rebuilt with single leg non recoil snakes, general consensus seems to be H&H, anyone want to swap a set for a full set of recoils? 

Cheers

Ben

[Sandy Nelson]

I have not looked into the structure of NiTi but have a hard time understanding how something that is so maleable can have such a high surface hardness. 

NiTi is not malleable, its a memory shape alloy, which if my understanding is correct then, the alloy is heated to a specific temperature and shaped into the shape it is to remain.
Below this temperature the Metal will allow for some deformation returning to its shape when the load is removed. However if you re heat it back to above its initial forming temperature then it it return to its original state. It also gets more brittle the colder it gets and less inclined to want to flex .
Malleable metals are Copper, lead , gold, etc which can be easily formed into shapes, NiTi is quite the opposite.
As for its surface hardness, no one anywhere seems to provide that information Funnily enough. I believe from what i have read if the surface is treated with Nitrogen then It forms TiN which is a very hard coating, still i know from experience on stainless steel snakes with TiN coating it wears off. It should be measured in Vickers.
Of all the rings, Titanium Nitrate lined have the greatest hardness, only people that i ever new of to use these on production rods, were David Norwich and Orvis (right upto to the T-3) but that was only for stripping guides.

Do you know what Snakes Orvis are using on the helios? and is the tip ring a short tube with a round ring as opposed to a hayfork?

I have a couple of full sets of single snakes, the standard H & H ones in black and Chrome, they are quite a bit heavier than recoils, but i have built a TCR with these before and it was very nice.
I take it the ones you want to swap are not the grooved ones still on the rod

Sandy

[Ben Dixon]

Hi Sandy,

You are correct, incorrect term!!

Tip on a Helios is definitely not recoil it is a chromed hayfork (not sure from who) and seems very durable, snakes are recoil standard snakes on the freshwater rods and heavy duty snakes on the saltwater rods, the stripping guide is a nanolite titanium job. 

Is there much difference in weight between a rod built single leg H&H snakes and recoil standard snakes? 

Cheers

Ben

[Sandy Nelson]

Is there much difference in weight between a rod built single leg H&H snakes and recoil standard snakes? 

hiya

Yes is the answer to that, you will notice the difference, Magnus and i did experiments with this a couple of years ago. It does not affect the CCS or ERN but it makes a huge difference to the MOI.
In fact i think the experiments helped him to pursue MOI as an important factor in "FEEL".

The standard Thin wire snakes weigh about the same as Recoils (light) and are stainless, the round tip tops are also about the same weight as a recoil. they look like this



The ring on the left is a round tip top/short tube and the one on the right is a standard hayfork.

I know sage are using the round tips these days.
I have Thin wire single snakes which do weigh much the same as recoils, but I'm waiting for a new batch, so you would have to ask Mr B nicely if you want a set.

Sandy