[Iain Cameron]

Just ever so slightly missing going fishing... so I bought one of those cheap nail knot tools - kind of elongated wedge shaped one with the open groove.


It's very good, simple to use. Been practising with old fly line and 15 & 20lb mono taking the role of what would be a permanently attached tapered leader. A winter pursuit of the perfect nail knot... getting the coils of mono to tighten up just right is an art


So, how many turns of mono would folk recommend? 5 seems too few, 6 or 7 about right...


i

[Rob Brownfield]

More on light line, less on heavier

6 seems to be the average for 12-15lb mono.

The thicker the mono the harder it is to sinch the knot down tight and therefore fewer turns are better. I think I am down to 3 turns on my 10 weight Pike lines and 30lb mono.

[Marc Fauvet]

3
any less doesn't hold well.
more is completely superfluous.
do pull and yank tests 

[Iain Cameron]

i shall go home and do some yanking tonight!

[Marc Fauvet]

just be sure to not mix up your consonants ! 

[Iain Cameron]

Quote from: Marc Fauvet on 12 November 2015, 16:15:25

just be sure to not mix up your consonants ! 

I yon't. Found 3 was a little too easy to pull apart. Using an old mallard DT 3 or 4 stuffed in a box, so it is a thin ish fly line. I'll conduct further tests... yes, I am bored without fishing to amuse me

[Will Shaw]

It really depends on the diam. of the leader butt.

15lb - 20lb is quite thin for a leader butt. I'm guessing most factory-made tapered leaders for trout have a butt of at least 30lb, maybe more.

With factory-made tapered leaders 3 turns is plenty. Never had one go - even under extreme pressure.

With 15lb mono I can see that you're going to need more turns - I'm guessing 5 or 6? Be aware though that the more turns you have the harder it is to get a nicely seated knot.

Me? I'd go for a thicker leader butt.

Hope this helps.

Will

[Hamish Young]

I put in 5 turns when I nail knot. I like 5, it's like 4 only one more but also one less than six - which is nice.

H

[Marc Fauvet]

Iain, i agree with Will. 15-20lb seems daft erm... way too thin as a leader butt diameter to get any kind of controlled turnover.
what are you planning to use this for ?

thought you might find some use from this video from Tie Fast 

[Iain Cameron]

thanks Will, Marc


I was just using 15 & 20lb mono to practice with before attacking my actual fishing lines and leaders. Yup, too thin for the task.

I use the Leeda selecta leaders; not sure of actual butt diameter, but they claim to be 50% bigger then everyone else's butt, dontcha know!

Does anyone treat the finished nail knot with any glue type product, either to add strength or just to make the whole knot smooth?
i,

had a couple of failures with minicon connectors this year, so time for a change.  Both times it was  my fly lines being used by someone else, oddly. not had one fail while I was playing fish myself

[Sandy Nelson]

Iain

I think of you are using large butt leaders i'd go back to this

http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4567.msg47802#msg47802

I'm still doing exactly the same and never had a failure yet

Sandy

[Euan Innes]

What Sandy said!
Best line to leader connection, EVAH!
Seriously though, very good turn over, and with a 2mm ring on the end tippet replacement is easy. For those of you who don't think rings are up to the task, salmon don't seem to mind so trout really don't give a sh@t.

 

[Will Shaw]

thanks Will, Marc


I was just using 15 & 20lb mono to practice with before attacking my actual fishing lines and leaders. Yup, too thin for the task.

I use the Leeda selecta leaders; not sure of actual butt diameter, but they claim to be 50% bigger then everyone else's butt, dontcha know!

Does anyone treat the finished nail knot with any glue type product, either to add strength or just to make the whole knot smooth?
i,

had a couple of failures with minicon connectors this year, so time for a change.  Both times it was  my fly lines being used by someone else, oddly. not had one fail while I was playing fish myself

Hey Iain

Interested to know the butt diam. of the Leeda ones. The one's I've seen always look really thin so I use either Rio or Orvis.

W.

[Marc Fauvet]

they don't seem give out butt section diameters Will, just the tips.



i just checked one i have in my spare kit- 15' 1x 7lb/3.1kg and the butt section's indeed thinner than typical Orvis, SA and Rio. (i don't have a micrometer but its very easy to see)
personally, i find the thinner diameter more appropriate for most trout-type fly lines whereas, the 'norm' is almost always outrageously too big/out of proportion.

Hanak http://www.hanak.eu/en/brand-hanak-competition/leaders/tapered-leaders seems to have better proportions. 

[Will Shaw]

I've always liked a thick butt!

W.

[Iain Cameron]

So much for their claim to have 50% bigger butts then!


Found one ancient old packet for the 1x, 15ft, 7lb leeda - butt is 0.018" or 0.4572 millimetres. Or it was, on that old style one!


Have had a copy of Fly Fishing & FT sitting open at a page showing the superglue and needling the leader inside the flee line. Very neat. will give it a go one day (but not one for doing on the riverbank).


So, undoubtedly I'll now go away and experiment with leaders of varying butt diameter for a while. By experimenting, I mean go away and buy loads of different brands, try them in inconclusive, unscientific tests, chopping 5 feet off of the end of my favourite Smallstream in the process, before finally reverting back to using the Leeda ones anyway...


i,

[Hamish Young]

Have had a copy of Fly Fishing & FT sitting open at a page showing the superglue and needling the leader inside the flee line. Very neat. will give it a go one day (but not one for doing on the riverbank).

I confess that gives me the heebie-jeebies every time I try it. I get myself all psyched up to try the superglue (other fast acting glues are available) only 'knot' and I pussy out every time 
Odd when you consider I trust braided loops and superglue to do a lot of my Salmon 'rigging', on trout stuff I just cannot bring myself to to rely on a glued in connection betwixt leader and fly line.

So, undoubtedly I'll now go away and experiment with leaders of varying butt diameter for a while. By experimenting, I mean go away and buy loads of different brands, try them in inconclusive, unscientific tests, chopping 5 feet off of the end of my favourite Smallstream in the process, before finally reverting back to using the Leeda ones anyway...

Nice 

[Mike Barrio]

That connection offers the best transition from fly line to leader that I've ever seen. No braided leader loop, no knots, I must confess that I was pretty unsure about this initially too, BUT ..........

I've watched Sandy play some pretty awesome trout over the last couple of seasons, I've certainly not seen any lack of confidence in his connection in the way he plays his fish ..... and I've not seen one fail

Cheers
Mike

[Euan Innes]

Very neat. will give it a go one day (but not one for doing on the riverbank).

If you get a C&F needle / nail knot tool it is very easy on the river bank. It takes about five minutes or less once you get the hang of it and the join is very strong. i've had Rainbows to over 6lb on my #4 without an issue. If you trust the 2mm ring on the other end of the leader then the Superglued end is nothing to worry about.
The secret is the 60grit sandpaper that you carry to rough up the nylon that will end up inside the fly line. 
Try it on an old line and see how strong it is. All my trout lines have the connection done this way.

 

[Iain Cameron]

No way am I going fishing with superglue in my pocket... i can see the potential for that ending very, very badly...
... let's just absent mindedly work some of this floatant into the body of the fly...

[Euan Innes]

Fair point Iain! 

 

[Liam Stephen]

I'm keen to give the superglue connection a go next season. My question is what X tapered leader do most of you guys use? Length wise, around 9ft I'm guessing?

 

[Euan Innes]

I like the Leeda ones that Iain put me on to but apparently he now likes a bigger butt....

Orvis Superstrong are good too with both types 9' long. I also like the breaking strain to be bigger than the strongest tippet that I will ever use and all the leaders end in a Riverge 2mm ring.

 

[Iain Cameron]

hi Liam


15 foot Leeda, 1x/7lb. i cut it back a couple of feet and use a tippet ring. then tippet & single fly, overall length around 14-15 feet.


it's a pretty durable, simple set up, maybe I'll need to re-tie the ring in after a few weeks' use if the tapered leader starts to get a bit messy, sometimes lasts months.


cheers
i,

[Liam Stephen]

Thanks Iain sound advice!